A difficult truth to accept: Liberal democracy is not favored around the world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The power holding class rarely gives it up.

Exhibit A - Putin invading Ukraine and other neighbors to satiate empire lust, and

Exhibit B - Trump’s failed but destructive insurrection and escalating number of lies about his election loss in 2020 election.

Why didn’t Trump use some of the military to succeed on Jan. 6th? He just thought a few thousand mostly unarmed protesters would get the job done?

He tried and was rebuffed by actual patriots.

[Anonymous]

Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.

We can’t all be as virtuous as Russia and China ammirite?!?
The US isn’t perfect, but it is better.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

For the US maybe. But the Americans sure don’t practice what they preach when it comes to foreign relations. The post World War Two era has seen Americans kill millions of innocents. I guess it’s okay when you are committing evil to make the world safe for democracy.

I have an idea!
How about Russia and China and Iran and North Korea give democracy a try. I would love to see them do it better. Truly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the Chinese are genuinely happy with their system. But the women in the large number of truly patriarchiacal systems like Russia and most of the middle east? if you think those peoples are happy, it is because you are only talking to men, or to women when men are present. And even the Chinese I think like the system imagined by Deng through Hu, and will not like the one imagined by Xi at all if Xi managed to completely bring it about)

Russia is SO not patriarchal. You have no idea what you’re talking about.

[Anonymous]

Do you consider Japan a liberal democracy considering it has effectively one party rule?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

UMC in Moscow and St Petersburg is pretty good especially if you dollar assets abroad like an American would if they were to live there

You know the term “Paris syndrome” ?

“Moscow syndrome” is the opposite

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

Isn’t Russia a good-ish example? After the fall of communism, they had voting rights but the economy was miserable. Putin came to power and restored stability, including economic stability, which underpins his popular support. Individual freedoms were eroded. Clearly that didn’t suit everyone but it seems it suits the majority.

DP.
I think a good source of knowledge on how average Russians feel is the Trauma Zone documentary.

Basically, they believed in liberal democracy and were hoping they would live “no worse than those in the U.S. and Europe”. However it was very very different, and now there is disillusionment.
People are starting to understand that liberal democracies are an elite club, and a country can either join them at great costs, losing economic and industrial independence, becoming their second class citizen so to speak, or a country can adopt a government that is resistant to becoming basically a servant to the club. This government starts protecting the country’s geopolitical interests, which is in turn framed by The Club as tyranny and all the other bad things. This causes the government in question to resist even more and become an even worse guy in the eyes of the western media and public, and so the vicious circle begins.

TLDR: there are only two ways for a country today to improve its economic situation- either to become subservient to the U.S. or to become a bad guy (gradually) while trying to protect its economic and geopolitical interests.

Completely disagree with your analysis.

Many US allies are far from subservient to the US. Many of them disagree on trade and human rights issues but express that in appropriate forums such as WTO/ UN/ diplomatic talks.

Russians have never had a functioning democracy and life under both communism and then Putin’s weird empire mongering dictatorship have not been kind to a majority of Russians. The cost for them never having a liberal democracy are

Would never in a million years want to swap life with free press, messy democracy, and individual freedoms for life in a dictatorship.

The non-subservient allies are Western European countries, and even that can be disputed (but okay I’ll give it that).

There was at least 10 years, maybe more, of trying to build a functioning democracy in Russia (1990-2000 or so). Even the 2010s weren’t so bad yet. The problem is that most Russians are completely disillusioned by that decade. They also see what happened to the Baltics which went all in for democracy.

Finally, Russia would be totally ok and not a villain if the U.S. and Western Europe listened to them and stopped their NATO and EU expansion flirting with the countries bordering Russia.
However it simply could not have happened as the ultimate goal of any larger country or union is to stop other countries they perceive as threats from expanding their influence.

So, Russia could have let “the west” have Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova. Or they had a a choice of becoming a contrarian and trying to stand their ground, which they did.
I think they have overestimated themselves and underestimated the clever PR and politics of the west, but the fact remains: it’s either doing what you are told and being a good friend or standing one’s ground and becoming the villain.

Again completely disagree.

Russia would have nothing to worry about from the NATO defense alliance if it did not plan on invading NATO countries.

Its latest aggressive foray into sovereign neighbor’s country reminded everyone everyone why NATO is essential to defending Western democracies from Russia’s insatiable lust for dominance in the world that is only matched by its indifference to the well being of ordinary citizens.

Putin is the villain because he acts with cynical disregard for international laws and human life as well as the needs of his own people. He is doubling his military budget at the expense of education, health and infrastructure so he can continue his illegal and immoral war in Ukraine.

It is not clever PR working against him but common human decency and common sense.

But NATO countries do invade others. You clearly don’t have to be Putin to invade foreign states!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

Isn’t Russia a good-ish example? After the fall of communism, they had voting rights but the economy was miserable. Putin came to power and restored stability, including economic stability, which underpins his popular support. Individual freedoms were eroded. Clearly that didn’t suit everyone but it seems it suits the majority.

DP.
I think a good source of knowledge on how average Russians feel is the Trauma Zone documentary.

Basically, they believed in liberal democracy and were hoping they would live “no worse than those in the U.S. and Europe”. However it was very very different, and now there is disillusionment.
People are starting to understand that liberal democracies are an elite club, and a country can either join them at great costs, losing economic and industrial independence, becoming their second class citizen so to speak, or a country can adopt a government that is resistant to becoming basically a servant to the club. This government starts protecting the country’s geopolitical interests, which is in turn framed by The Club as tyranny and all the other bad things. This causes the government in question to resist even more and become an even worse guy in the eyes of the western media and public, and so the vicious circle begins.

TLDR: there are only two ways for a country today to improve its economic situation- either to become subservient to the U.S. or to become a bad guy (gradually) while trying to protect its economic and geopolitical interests.

Completely disagree with your analysis.

Many US allies are far from subservient to the US. Many of them disagree on trade and human rights issues but express that in appropriate forums such as WTO/ UN/ diplomatic talks.

Russians have never had a functioning democracy and life under both communism and then Putin’s weird empire mongering dictatorship have not been kind to a majority of Russians. The cost for them never having a liberal democracy are

Would never in a million years want to swap life with free press, messy democracy, and individual freedoms for life in a dictatorship.

The non-subservient allies are Western European countries, and even that can be disputed (but okay I’ll give it that).

There was at least 10 years, maybe more, of trying to build a functioning democracy in Russia (1990-2000 or so). Even the 2010s weren’t so bad yet. The problem is that most Russians are completely disillusioned by that decade. They also see what happened to the Baltics which went all in for democracy.

Finally, Russia would be totally ok and not a villain if the U.S. and Western Europe listened to them and stopped their NATO and EU expansion flirting with the countries bordering Russia.
However it simply could not have happened as the ultimate goal of any larger country or union is to stop other countries they perceive as threats from expanding their influence.

So, Russia could have let “the west” have Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova. Or they had a a choice of becoming a contrarian and trying to stand their ground, which they did.
I think they have overestimated themselves and underestimated the clever PR and politics of the west, but the fact remains: it’s either doing what you are told and being a good friend or standing one’s ground and becoming the villain.

Again completely disagree.

Russia would have nothing to worry about from the NATO defense alliance if it did not plan on invading NATO countries.

Its latest aggressive foray into sovereign neighbor’s country reminded everyone everyone why NATO is essential to defending Western democracies from Russia’s insatiable lust for dominance in the world that is only matched by its indifference to the well being of ordinary citizens.

Putin is the villain because he acts with cynical disregard for international laws and human life as well as the needs of his own people. He is doubling his military budget at the expense of education, health and infrastructure so he can continue his illegal and immoral war in Ukraine.

It is not clever PR working against him but common human decency and common sense.

Pretty much everyone who knows anything about the region agrees that NATO expansion led to the Ukraine war.

Pretty much that’s an RT talking point that’s not gonna fly here. Also, there is an entire thread dedicated to Ukraine and you can take it over there. Thanks.

Is George Kennan RT? How interesting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

Isn’t Russia a good-ish example? After the fall of communism, they had voting rights but the economy was miserable. Putin came to power and restored stability, including economic stability, which underpins his popular support. Individual freedoms were eroded. Clearly that didn’t suit everyone but it seems it suits the majority.

DP.
I think a good source of knowledge on how average Russians feel is the Trauma Zone documentary.

Basically, they believed in liberal democracy and were hoping they would live “no worse than those in the U.S. and Europe”. However it was very very different, and now there is disillusionment.
People are starting to understand that liberal democracies are an elite club, and a country can either join them at great costs, losing economic and industrial independence, becoming their second class citizen so to speak, or a country can adopt a government that is resistant to becoming basically a servant to the club. This government starts protecting the country’s geopolitical interests, which is in turn framed by The Club as tyranny and all the other bad things. This causes the government in question to resist even more and become an even worse guy in the eyes of the western media and public, and so the vicious circle begins.

TLDR: there are only two ways for a country today to improve its economic situation- either to become subservient to the U.S. or to become a bad guy (gradually) while trying to protect its economic and geopolitical interests.

Completely disagree with your analysis.

Many US allies are far from subservient to the US. Many of them disagree on trade and human rights issues but express that in appropriate forums such as WTO/ UN/ diplomatic talks.

Russians have never had a functioning democracy and life under both communism and then Putin’s weird empire mongering dictatorship have not been kind to a majority of Russians. The cost for them never having a liberal democracy are

Would never in a million years want to swap life with free press, messy democracy, and individual freedoms for life in a dictatorship.

The non-subservient allies are Western European countries, and even that can be disputed (but okay I’ll give it that).

There was at least 10 years, maybe more, of trying to build a functioning democracy in Russia (1990-2000 or so). Even the 2010s weren’t so bad yet. The problem is that most Russians are completely disillusioned by that decade. They also see what happened to the Baltics which went all in for democracy.

Finally, Russia would be totally ok and not a villain if the U.S. and Western Europe listened to them and stopped their NATO and EU expansion flirting with the countries bordering Russia.
However it simply could not have happened as the ultimate goal of any larger country or union is to stop other countries they perceive as threats from expanding their influence.

So, Russia could have let “the west” have Georgia, Ukraine, and Moldova. Or they had a a choice of becoming a contrarian and trying to stand their ground, which they did.
I think they have overestimated themselves and underestimated the clever PR and politics of the west, but the fact remains: it’s either doing what you are told and being a good friend or standing one’s ground and becoming the villain.

Again completely disagree.

Russia would have nothing to worry about from the NATO defense alliance if it did not plan on invading NATO countries.

Its latest aggressive foray into sovereign neighbor’s country reminded everyone everyone why NATO is essential to defending Western democracies from Russia’s insatiable lust for dominance in the world that is only matched by its indifference to the well being of ordinary citizens.

Putin is the villain because he acts with cynical disregard for international laws and human life as well as the needs of his own people. He is doubling his military budget at the expense of education, health and infrastructure so he can continue his illegal and immoral war in Ukraine.

It is not clever PR working against him but common human decency and common sense.

Pretty much everyone who knows anything about the region agrees that NATO expansion led to the Ukraine war.

Pretty much that’s an RT talking point that’s not gonna fly here. Also, there is an entire thread dedicated to Ukraine and you can take it over there. Thanks.

Is George Kennan RT? How interesting.

No. He’s dead, and not relevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

Who cares, are all of these word meant to intimidate? What is your point? The U.S. will continue to advocate for, finance, and fight for its interest around the world.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

Okay. Now, imagine you have your messy democracy. Also, your money is worth nothing, your social safety benefit net has crumbled, you can’t find a job and everything is out of reach financially. Imagine how much you’d care about your freedom if speech then.

You have to be really honest about what you like about your democracies. If it’s economic prosperity, then remind yourself that you can clearly have that without democracy or at least a full range of it. Life in China, UAE, or Russia can be quite comfortable if you have the right skillset.

A good friend of mine is married to a VP of a major Russian bank. They are both UK citizens and have lived there for decades. But right now they have no intention of leaving bc life is just too dang comfortable.

Thank you for enlightening us. We are not ready to betray the U.S. in any way possible, to support the aims and Russia and China. We are convinced. /s

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: Difficult Truth to accept:

Democracy is not easy.
It takes work
We aren’t perfect, and our system is not easy, but it’s the best humankind has come up with.


END THREAD

Amen amen