A difficult truth to accept: Liberal democracy is not favored around the world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

[Anonymous]

It is much easier for people living in dictatorships without free press and fair elections to accept.

Thankfully we are not there yet. We need to value true freedoms - democracy with checks and balances, freedom of speech, free press, and independent branches of legislative, executive and judicial government and ability to pursue happiness.

As for living in dictatorships - Westerners have little idea how terrifying that would be. Where viable opposition and their supporters are either jailed, murdered or tortured - where critics of government can be sent to jail or re education camps and where competitive businesses are shut down if they don’t belong to cronies.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

You may not be aware of it, but parties get banned all the time. Here is a decent list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_political_parties

Quite a few banned parties in liberal democracies, including the US. Germany is debating in public whether to ban AFD currently as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

You may not be aware of it, but parties get banned all the time. Here is a decent list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_political_parties

Quite a few banned parties in liberal democracies, including the US. Germany is debating in public whether to ban AFD currently as well.

Most of the countries listed were not western democracies and The US has only banned the communist party.

And compare that list of banned parties in western democracies to numbers of jailed dissidents and opposition leaders/ supporters in China and Russia …

The solution is not to move further towards either right wing or left wing extremism but to defend democracy as the cornerstone of our freedom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apologies for the long musings here but it's something I've been thinking about.

I traveled a lot throughout Eastern Europe and Central Asia in my early 20s and in my naive open mind I accepted that Western-style liberal democracy simply wasn't the be-all end-all, I was such a cultural relativist that one could even call me a dictator-apologist, "tankie", or conspiracy theorist a la The Grayzone if anyone is familiar with that podcast.

Then upon becoming a more educated, professional adult, I appreciated the freedom and opportunities that came with the US and the West. I definitely consider myself a political liberal and an economic social-democrat. I despise Trump and his authoritarian tendencies and Putin, Orban, Edrogan, and the like.

Here's the thing, though. Revisiting in my mind the places that I've visited and the people I've known that coastal urban liberals of the US take so much for granted that the rest of the world agrees with us. It's not just conservatives, right wingers, and Trump supporters in the US. It's everywhere else. We assume that everyone should agree that Ukraine are the good guys and Russia are the bad guys, that Israel are the good guys and Palestine are the bad guys, that everyone favors capitalism (whether American-style with less regulations or Northern European-style with more regulations), social welfare, social freedoms and gender equality and LGBTQ rights and separation of church and state. The fact is that day to day, people are looking out for themselves and their families and this is human nature, and that many populations around the world believe that regimes that we consider authoritarian deliver better on bread-and-butter issues. And that the church/mosque/whatever is essential to maintain a moral fabric of society. There are certain ways in which the rural conservatives in Alabama and West Virginia have more in common with many other parts in the world than people in Bethesda, Maryland.

If you look at Alexander Dugin and Eurasianism, I have read his texts many times, and have often thought it is the most abhorrent philosophy in the world, akin to Nazism. I still abhor Duginism, but I realize how it makes sense from a non-Western, socially conservative perspective.
There's a reason why BRICS exist. There's a reason why China is ascendant and the Belt and Road Initiative is working in other parts of Asia - they don't care about China's authoriarian policies or lack of freedom of speech or human rights violations reported... China is building things, America is bombing things - that's what they see. Likewise, Russia has done outreach in Africa and Latin America over thigns like cybersecurity and infrastructure policy. Even countries in Europe, many people are burned out over supporting Ukraine and feel that the EU hasn't done much of them, and don't feel like continuing to feel the pain over oil and gas sanctions against Russia.

You look at other cosmopolitan places in the world and assume that the US is so much better because of our freedoms, but places like Dubai (terribly misogynist!) and Singapore (they execute people who do drugs!) still attract people. Russia and China are not universal villains. The Arab world's wealth and energy sector trump their policies on women and LGBTQ rights. The world is just not woke. The world is multipolar, and we don't have to like it. The more the US fights against multipolarity, the more people will hate us.

Americans assume that the arc of history always bends towards justice, and more social freedoms, but this is simply not true. Culture needs to be left alone to evolve, not imposed by war or corporations.

They are favored in wealthy western countries but Russia and China spend billions to spread misinformation that undermines confidence in them.

The alternative to messy democracies is clinical dictatorships, no free press, no freedom of speech to criticize elected officials and jail worse for any promising opposition.

Umm, no thanks!

You may not be aware of it, but parties get banned all the time. Here is a decent list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_political_parties

Quite a few banned parties in liberal democracies, including the US. Germany is debating in public whether to ban AFD currently as well.

Most of the countries listed were not western democracies and The US has only banned the communist party.

And compare that list of banned parties in western democracies to numbers of jailed dissidents and opposition leaders/ supporters in China and Russia …

The solution is not to move further towards either right wing or left wing extremism but to defend democracy as the cornerstone of our freedom.

Nice try at deflecting, but there are seven EU countries on that list, covering 15 parties. That's not even covering Ukraine which is our/EU client state and has banned 16 parties just since 2014.

"Authoritarian" China banned 12 parties, and Russia, hilariously, has not banned any.

Also, not sure how you can watch the news for the last 8+ years and think the US doesn't jail or attempt to jail dissidents.

All to say, that liberal democracy doesn't actually live up to its rhetoric.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is much easier for people living in dictatorships without free press and fair elections to accept.

Thankfully we are not there yet. We need to value true freedoms - democracy with checks and balances, freedom of speech, free press, and independent branches of legislative, executive and judicial government and ability to pursue happiness.

As for living in dictatorships - Westerners have little idea how terrifying that would be. Where viable opposition and their supporters are either jailed, murdered or tortured - where critics of government can be sent to jail or re education camps and where competitive businesses are shut down if they don’t belong to cronies.

I think many posters are missing OP’s point and simply defending a US-centric perspective which is centred on the importance of individual human rights like freedom of speech, etc. Not everyone prioritises human rights in the same way. In some countries, the right to shelter, food, public safety or an economic livelihood might be seen as more important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It is much easier for people living in dictatorships without free press and fair elections to accept.

Thankfully we are not there yet. We need to value true freedoms - democracy with checks and balances, freedom of speech, free press, and independent branches of legislative, executive and judicial government and ability to pursue happiness.

As for living in dictatorships - Westerners have little idea how terrifying that would be. Where viable opposition and their supporters are either jailed, murdered or tortured - where critics of government can be sent to jail or re education camps and where competitive businesses are shut down if they don’t belong to cronies.

I think many posters are missing OP’s point and simply defending a US-centric perspective which is centred on the importance of individual human rights like freedom of speech, etc. Not everyone prioritises human rights in the same way. In some countries, the right to shelter, food, public safety or an economic livelihood might be seen as more important.

It's centered on the voters getting to set their priorities. If we vote in a dictator then we vote in a dictator. Plenty of Americans seem to want that ......millions. if they think that means they will get better shelter, food, public safety or livelihoods, they are wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course liberal democracies don't work. There isn't enough money in the world for them. They want everything for free, an insist on others paying for it. When that doesn't work, they turn to slavery and coercion to get it.

Look at us. Electric Vehicles need minerals to be menufactured so we coerce the Congo for them and have China do the dirty work for us. Same with Nike, solar panels, Apple products, etc.

They're super progressive and super evil.

Wait what? You complain about something like food stamps but have no issue with tax loopholes for hedge funds; you don't complain about farmer subsidies or the types of policies that have created the billionaire wealth - there is plenty of money for a liberal democracy, you just want certain types of people to benefit from it and in a consolidated manner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think liberal democracies are favored around the world but malevolent people with enough money and power have pushed false or misleading narratives in a way that support the rest of your narrative.

This is the truth. People generally want rights. Some people with a lot of power and money really don’t want people to have rights.

I think most people, about 80% of people, would prefer to live in a liberal democracy. After watching the GOP go full Nazi, we now know that a small but deranged and very stubborn minority want authoritarianism.

The GOP is genociding Jews?

I daresay the problem is people like you who make these outrageous assertions because everything you the slight right of you is only fascism/Nazis.

[Anonymous]

Lee kwan yew is the perfect head of state

It’s too bad the us will never get someone like that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op is spot on

Go raise your family in Russia. It will be so great.

Isn’t Russia a good-ish example? After the fall of communism, they had voting rights but the economy was miserable. Putin came to power and restored stability, including economic stability, which underpins his popular support. Individual freedoms were eroded. Clearly that didn’t suit everyone but it seems it suits the majority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think the Chinese are genuinely happy with their system. But the women in the large number of truly patriarchiacal systems like Russia and most of the middle east? if you think those peoples are happy, it is because you are only talking to men, or to women when men are present. And even the Chinese I think like the system imagined by Deng through Hu, and will not like the one imagined by Xi at all if Xi managed to completely bring it about)

China is a sh*thole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is much easier for people living in dictatorships without free press and fair elections to accept.

Thankfully we are not there yet. We need to value true freedoms - democracy with checks and balances, freedom of speech, free press, and independent branches of legislative, executive and judicial government and ability to pursue happiness.

As for living in dictatorships - Westerners have little idea how terrifying that would be. Where viable opposition and their supporters are either jailed, murdered or tortured - where critics of government can be sent to jail or re education camps and where competitive businesses are shut down if they don’t belong to cronies.

Uh South America is Western and know dictatorships. Try talking with an Argentinian who went through the Dirty War (military dictatorship).

[Anonymous]

So you’re a tankie then?