Are professors at all universities seeing big drop in college preparedness?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

Similar only at my sons' Catholic HS there were no optional finals for two years. Things were the same, tests still required, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

Similar only at my sons' Catholic HS there were no optional finals for two years. Things were the same, tests still required, etc.

Our public school isn't anything like the caricature the PP is painting either. They are better prepared for college academically than ever before. I think less selective colleges are seeing a blip in skills since the pandemic though--as those undergraduates come through.

[Anonymous]

I have been teaching since 2003 and have worked in a few institutions.

I would say the biggest change is not academic skill but emotional preparedness.

The students are just less ready for college, I suspect because of a generation of helicopter parents.

Covid certainly did not help.

Despite this, it's really not a big deal- as a professor you roll with the students you get. That's the job.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

TO has nothing to do with weather a student is prepared for college.

I would say I have not seen a major change. If anything, students seem better prepared overall. There are still a few that I was would have been required to talk a basic writing class. The one area I do see a difference is the extent to which students want to turn in work late. There doesn't seem to be the same priority for deadlines.

+1 My colleagues at T20 schools, SLACS, and public R1 universities report the same behavior I have observed since the pandemic. The majority of students are academically prepared; however, there has been an increase in the number of students who can't meet deadlines, ask to redo assignments, struggle with mental health, and chronically skip class.

I'm at a public R1, and our DRW rates have slightly increased since the pandemic; there is some evidence that some TO students are struggling in gateway math courses and had to repeat a course or switch majors. However, this is not a significant number of students compared to pre-TO data. Retention rates amongst TO students haven't decreased, and they are on track to graduate and not negatively impact our 4- or 6-year graduate rates.

How do you know this? My husband and I both faculty at universities and neither of us are privy to any of this.

Chair of the department and serve on the faculty senate executive committee.

Are you supposed to be sharing this info?
My spouse is also similarly involved and has been told explicitly not to share info based on limited data or speculate about it.

The information is not public but wasn't told explicitly to not share the info. However, I didn't name the school, and this is an anonymous forum. I'll take my chances!

OP - sorry I had no idea this could place anyone at any professional risk. I am just a mom of a HS student whom we hope to launch into college life successfully in a few years.

Thank you very much for replying.

It is actually encouraging that students seems to be relatively well prepared overall.

We do plan to encourage DC to work on writing skills, being on time and handing in assignments on time, per suggestions.

However, it is great that college graduation rates have not changed much since TO.

OP, student preparedness for college goes beyond academic knowledge. It refers to the degree to which a student is ready to succeed academically, socially, and emotionally in college. This encompasses a range of factors beyond academic knowledge and skills, such as study habits, time management, self-advocacy, emotional/mental resilience, and the ability to navigate and adapt to the college environment and its associated responsibilities.

Therefore, most colleges, especially selective/highly selective institutions, are investing a lot of resources into student success initiatives to improve student retention and graduation rates. This shift pre-dates the pandemic, however, the last few years have exacerbated this issue of student preparedness. For example, during the last 6-8 years, my institution reorganized separate student-centered programs and resources under a larger academic success program and increasingly uses enrollment/student success management systems (aka algorithms) to boost student success rates by determining financial aid, predicting and identifying students in danger of failing a class or dropping out, and to support students during their college, i.e., from enrollment to graduation.

OP - thanks and I agree that college preparedness is multi layered. Your college/ Uni sounds extremely proactive, which is super!

May I ask what you think parents should encourage or pay attention to foster different layers of preparedness for college success?

It feels like college expectations and life are so different from when I was young.

I had never heard of “student success management systems (aka algorithms) to boost student success rates by determining financial aid, predicting and identifying students in danger of failing a class or dropping out, and to support students during their college, i.e., from enrollment to graduation.”

Do the algorithms weed out students with learning differences or other graduation risk factors at the enrollment level :/ or are they intended to find ways to better support them during the college experience?

I am also interested in what types of writing skills need work - is it basic writing skills or ability to structure arguments in academic ways ?

Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

In observing my own child's journey toward higher education, I've come to recognize firsthand the challenges associated with student preparedness for college. While they excel in certain academic areas (high PSAT/ACT scores, 8 AP classes to date), there are other crucial aspects of readiness, such as time management, learning to study effectively, and self-advocacy, where I see room for growth. For example, his GPA could be higher (currently 3.8 unweighted) but my son has some Bs because of poor time management and ineffective study skills. I believe that many parents, myself included, might underestimate the comprehensive nature of college readiness, focusing predominantly on academic achievements. I am taking the time to directly teach appropriate study skills for history vs a math class. As mentioned by another poster, I believe it is crucial to teach our children the importance of advocating for themselves, including sending emails to their teachers, creating a system to organize their schoolwork, using a calendar effectively, planning ahead to avoid procrastination, etc.

Regarding the use of student success algorithms, I don't see any evidence of their use to weed out students with learning differences. Their use is not without controversy. However, I have seen students benefit from the ability to identify students who are struggling early in their college careers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

+1

OP - this has been thrashed out in previous pages. Recent Research suggests that GPAs are much stronger predictors for college preparedness than test scores.

Nope. That data is old and before such serious grade inflation, and being able to make countless test corrections and hand in late assignments for credit, etc.

I agree, in the past a high GPA meant something. It really doesn't anymore when you have a high school class with 250 valedictorians, and they are getting 1-3 on their AP exams (which they don't submit).

PPs have provided actual articles and studies. Do you have anything to offer other than whining?

[Anonymous]

OP, here are some studies that address grade inflation that you may find informative:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775720305239?via%3Dihub

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED603248

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

But the main problem with Catholic high schools is that the curriculum is not nearly as rigorous as in public schools. No need for retakes when the tests are so easy, amirite?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP, here are some studies that address grade inflation that you may find informative:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775720305239?via%3Dihub

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED603248

OP

Thank you - I do note the first article was also published in 2020 (same as research confirming GPAs is biggest predictor for college readiness) while the second article was analyzing eighth and ninth grade Algebra I students in North Carolina's public schools from 2006 to 2016 - so more dated than other research cited by Forbes and U Chicago.

Thank you - the first article in Economics of Education Review confirmed what I suspected / grade inflation is higher in disadvantaged school populations (probably a vicious cycle of needing funding that is based on good results -/ but it sounds like they are working on that and narrowing the gaps.
“Year-specific (static) grade inflation has been, and remains, higher in schools serving relatively disadvantaged student populations; however, differential changes over the past ten years (what we term dynamic grade inflation) have significantly narrowed the socioeconomic gap in static grade inflation.”

The second article from Fordham institute also identified this being more of an issue in disadvantaged school settings, which is not the case for our DMV school that requires mastery of skills for good grades.

“The analysis yielded six major findings. Among them: Students of all racial/ethnic groups learn more from teachers with high grading standards, and these standards tend to be higher in schools serving more advantaged students. Moreover, the impact of rigorous grading practices can improve student performance in subsequent math classes up to two years later.”



For our DC, who attends a highly advantaged school, some of the advice offered by professors is very helpful - to work on executive functioning/ time management and communication plus writing skills. Mental health is of course key also. It is a stressful to transition to college let alone come to terms with so many current harsh realities.


Thanks for the clarifying links!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

But the main problem with Catholic high schools is that the curriculum is not nearly as rigorous as in public schools. No need for retakes when the tests are so easy, amirite?

Oh no, you couldn't be further from the truth. My kids had to take an entrance exam and take placement tests to place out of lower level math and into Honors language, etc. My kids were straight A students in intensified math, language, etc., in middle school and routinely scored perfect 600s on SOLs. After 7th grade the oldest bombed the Algebra exemption test for the Independent Hs because the math was much more in depth and had concepts not taught at his public MS. They could virtually do noting in public MS and score all As. The courses are much more rigorous at their private and no slack is given. The amount of writing and studying they do vs in public is not even close. They both have scored 5s on every AP exam to date.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

But the main problem with Catholic high schools is that the curriculum is not nearly as rigorous as in public schools. No need for retakes when the tests are so easy, amirite?

Oh no, you couldn't be further from the truth. My kids had to take an entrance exam and take placement tests to place out of lower level math and into Honors language, etc. My kids were straight A students in intensified math, language, etc., in middle school and routinely scored perfect 600s on SOLs. After 7th grade the oldest bombed the Algebra exemption test for the Independent Hs because the math was much more in depth and had concepts not taught at his public MS. They could virtually do noting in public MS and score all As. The courses are much more rigorous at their private and no slack is given. The amount of writing and studying they do vs in public is not even close. They both have scored 5s on every AP exam to date.

Anyone who thinks Visi is easier than a MoCo, Ffx, APS HS ...bwahhhhhhh,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

Similar only at my sons' Catholic HS there were no optional finals for two years. Things were the same, tests still required, etc.

Our public school isn't anything like the caricature the PP is painting either. They are better prepared for college academically than ever before. I think less selective colleges are seeing a blip in skills since the pandemic though--as those undergraduates come through.

I could not agree more. I was top of my class, and I'm constantly thinking how mediocre I would be in this day and age.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College is the new high school. Kids coming in are like middle school students from a decade or two ago. Poor reading and writing skills. Want to do corrections and have trouble with deadlines. Sure COVID made it worse but was getting progressively worse before COVID. I chalk it up to the advent of everyone getting a participation trophy.

Not all of them. My son went to a Catholic high school. The only change made by his school during Covid was that finals were optional for two years (and if you took them and they lowered your grade, you were stuck with it). He is an excellent writer. If something was more than a day late, he got a zero. There were no retakes and the lowest grade you could get was a zero, not a 50%. You are describing students coming from public schools where these policies were in place.

But the main problem with Catholic high schools is that the curriculum is not nearly as rigorous as in public schools. No need for retakes when the tests are so easy, amirite?

WTH? My son’s friends in public school don’t take midterms or finals. My son has been taking both since 3rd grade. He had essays on every test.

I’m not sure his friends in public have ever written anything to hand in longer than two pages. They asked him what a thesis statement was. This was in 12th grade. Public schools just don’t assign long writing assignments because the teachers have too many students to have time to grade them.

[Anonymous]

You think students now are less prepared than in 1980? Really!?!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Americans have been brainwashed and dumbed down to a level that you can't imagine.

Yep. Merit has been taken out of the equation. Which brain surgeon do you want? I'll take the smartest and most skilled---don't care anything about their personal life or race or religion or sexual orientation.

Sounds about white.

Love the one-answer-fits all-questions responses. The highways are racist. The weather is racist. Fossil fuels are racist. Testing is racist. Math is racist. Paper clips are racist.