Are professors at all universities seeing big drop in college preparedness?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I teach at community colleges. My classes are very heavy in requiring actual thinking, but the students seem prepared for only multiple-choice exams that require them to “recognize” answers, not come up with answers via intense thinking.

Student preparedness has been going down for about 10 yrs. I put most of the blame on high school teachers & their reliance on Scantrons. When a test approaches, the students’ main concern is whether they have to provide their own Scantrons. They are shocked when I tell them I’ve never used them for classroom evaluations.

Think about it. If your exam is all multiple-choice, you don’t really have to KNOW the material to pass; you usually just have to be vaguely familiar with the material.

OP - that is a good point. I have noticed that the drivers education exams for teens are also multiple choice (many all of the above answers) and I wondered whether that is a good indicator of actual knowledge needed to drive safely .

I must say high school was much more memorization and regurgitation when I was young so I loved the leap to thinking critically in college. I can see how that might be a more difficult leap for some who are only doing multiple choice questions in HS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

+1

OP - this has been thrashed out in previous pages. Recent Research suggests that GPAs are much stronger predictors for college preparedness than test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

+1

OP - this has been thrashed out in previous pages. Recent Research suggests that GPAs are much stronger predictors for college preparedness than test scores.

Nope. That data is old and before such serious grade inflation, and being able to make countless test corrections and hand in late assignments for credit, etc.

I agree, in the past a high GPA meant something. It really doesn't anymore when you have a high school class with 250 valedictorians, and they are getting 1-3 on their AP exams (which they don't submit).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

TO has nothing to do with weather a student is prepared for college.

I would say I have not seen a major change. If anything, students seem better prepared overall. There are still a few that I was would have been required to talk a basic writing class. The one area I do see a difference is the extent to which students want to turn in work late. There doesn't seem to be the same priority for deadlines.

+1 My colleagues at T20 schools, SLACS, and public R1 universities report the same behavior I have observed since the pandemic. The majority of students are academically prepared; however, there has been an increase in the number of students who can't meet deadlines, ask to redo assignments, struggle with mental health, and chronically skip class.

I'm at a public R1, and our DRW rates have slightly increased since the pandemic; there is some evidence that some TO students are struggling in gateway math courses and had to repeat a course or switch majors. However, this is not a significant number of students compared to pre-TO data. Retention rates amongst TO students haven't decreased, and they are on track to graduate and not negatively impact our 4- or 6-year graduate rates.

OP - that is encouraging thank you .

OP - to clarify / Sorry the part about increased mental health issues is not encouraging but perfectly understandable given the collective traumas our youth experienced during the pandemic. I was aware and we already are quite proactive on the mental health front.

Yes you are right that this impacts executive functioning quite a lot. We will continue to work on those skill sets.

However, I had assumed there would be more impacts on academic skill sets as well and am encouraged that is reportedly not the case .

I think the mental heath issues pre-dated the pandemic. I think a lot of the mental health issues also stem from kids living under immense pressure and having their parents manage their entire lives.

OP - maybe but research is very mixed in that regard. Some research shows that college students with helicopter parents do better and are more confident because they know their parents support them and their success.

I am sure there is a balance to that and we parents have to gradually hand over the reigns to our children as they prepare for adult life.

I also think there are way more expectations placed on students now then when I was young.

We emphasize to our DC that there are many paths to success and that admission to prestigious brand name colleges is not the goal - rather to pursue studies they find interesting in a setting where they feel safe and happy and that eventually lead towards types of employments they will enjoy.

PP here. Very much agree with pretty much all of what you said. I do think being an involved patient is different than a bulldozer parent who does everything for a kid/picks their classes/emails teachers complaining of grades/etc. One of the simple things I have my kids do is to email their teachers if they have questions/concerns. I've actually sat down with my MS kid and helped draft an email to a teacher. It seems simple but many kids get to college and cannot compose an email to a professor. It also gets them in the habit of advocating for themselves vs having a parent do it. If a DC misses school due to illness, they already know to reach out to their teachers. I think the stakes are also higher now going into college. There is so much uncertainty. I had the luxury of getting a liberal arts degree before heading to grad school. Now, even a STEM degree isn't a guarantee of anything. They see the political turmoil, climate crisis, and increase cost of living. It's a lot for a young adult.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

+1

OP - this has been thrashed out in previous pages. Recent Research suggests that GPAs are much stronger predictors for college preparedness than test scores.

Nope. That data is old and before such serious grade inflation, and being able to make countless test corrections and hand in late assignments for credit, etc.

I agree, in the past a high GPA meant something. It really doesn't anymore when you have a high school class with 250 valedictorians, and they are getting 1-3 on their AP exams (which they don't submit).

OP - is 2020 considered old research now?

Coukd you please link to credible research showing that grade inflation is a wide spread problem affecting college preparedness? How can the AP exams and grades be inflated since there they are graded under tightly controlled mechanisms?

Most of the professors (it sounds like at the 4 year colleges) reported that they are not seeing much difference in college preparedness except in terms of
- executive functioning, being late, handing in work late
- mental health issues
- some writing skills.

However a professor teaching at community college (and we have amazing community college where we live) said her/ his students are lacking in critical thinking skills due multiple choice question based teaching. I wonder whether that is an indicator of students from lower income families without as many resources to support learning. I wonder whether that improves over time and especially if they transfer to 4 year colleges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

TO has nothing to do with weather a student is prepared for college.

I would say I have not seen a major change. If anything, students seem better prepared overall. There are still a few that I was would have been required to talk a basic writing class. The one area I do see a difference is the extent to which students want to turn in work late. There doesn't seem to be the same priority for deadlines.

+1 My colleagues at T20 schools, SLACS, and public R1 universities report the same behavior I have observed since the pandemic. The majority of students are academically prepared; however, there has been an increase in the number of students who can't meet deadlines, ask to redo assignments, struggle with mental health, and chronically skip class.

I'm at a public R1, and our DRW rates have slightly increased since the pandemic; there is some evidence that some TO students are struggling in gateway math courses and had to repeat a course or switch majors. However, this is not a significant number of students compared to pre-TO data. Retention rates amongst TO students haven't decreased, and they are on track to graduate and not negatively impact our 4- or 6-year graduate rates.

OP - that is encouraging thank you .

OP - to clarify / Sorry the part about increased mental health issues is not encouraging but perfectly understandable given the collective traumas our youth experienced during the pandemic. I was aware and we already are quite proactive on the mental health front.

Yes you are right that this impacts executive functioning quite a lot. We will continue to work on those skill sets.

However, I had assumed there would be more impacts on academic skill sets as well and am encouraged that is reportedly not the case .

I think the mental heath issues pre-dated the pandemic. I think a lot of the mental health issues also stem from kids living under immense pressure and having their parents manage their entire lives.

OP - maybe but research is very mixed in that regard. Some research shows that college students with helicopter parents do better and are more confident because they know their parents support them and their success.

I am sure there is a balance to that and we parents have to gradually hand over the reigns to our children as they prepare for adult life.

I also think there are way more expectations placed on students now then when I was young.

We emphasize to our DC that there are many paths to success and that admission to prestigious brand name colleges is not the goal - rather to pursue studies they find interesting in a setting where they feel safe and happy and that eventually lead towards types of employments they will enjoy.

PP here. Very much agree with pretty much all of what you said. I do think being an involved patient is different than a bulldozer parent who does everything for a kid/picks their classes/emails teachers complaining of grades/etc. One of the simple things I have my kids do is to email their teachers if they have questions/concerns. I've actually sat down with my MS kid and helped draft an email to a teacher. It seems simple but many kids get to college and cannot compose an email to a professor. It also gets them in the habit of advocating for themselves vs having a parent do it. If a DC misses school due to illness, they already know to reach out to their teachers. I think the stakes are also higher now going into college. There is so much uncertainty. I had the luxury of getting a liberal arts degree before heading to grad school. Now, even a STEM degree isn't a guarantee of anything. They see the political turmoil, climate crisis, and increase cost of living. It's a lot for a young adult.

OP - thank you and you sound like a very wise parent. Our DC is reluctant to contact teachers directly but I am also encouraging that. Good idea to help with the drafts!

I completely agree that mental health issues are understandable given the state of the world. Heck, many adults are overwhelmed now also. There are no easy solutions to anything but we can at least encourage our children to be proactive in their physical and psycho social health and to be pro active about wider issues they care about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could also be TO and weaker admissions standards for “prestige” universities. It’s not just the pandemic.

+1

OP - this has been thrashed out in previous pages. Recent Research suggests that GPAs are much stronger predictors for college preparedness than test scores.

Nope. That data is old and before such serious grade inflation, and being able to make countless test corrections and hand in late assignments for credit, etc.

I agree, in the past a high GPA meant something. It really doesn't anymore when you have a high school class with 250 valedictorians, and they are getting 1-3 on their AP exams (which they don't submit).

OP - is 2020 considered old research now?

Coukd you please link to credible research showing that grade inflation is a wide spread problem affecting college preparedness? How can the AP exams and grades be inflated since there they are graded under tightly controlled mechanisms?

Most of the professors (it sounds like at the 4 year colleges) reported that they are not seeing much difference in college preparedness except in terms of
- executive functioning, being late, handing in work late
- mental health issues
- some writing skills.

However a professor teaching at community college (and we have amazing community college where we live) said her/ his students are lacking in critical thinking skills due multiple choice question based teaching. I wonder whether that is an indicator of students from lower income families without as many resources to support learning. I wonder whether that improves over time and especially if they transfer to 4 year colleges.

This is now over 30% of each incoming class and getting higher...

[Anonymous]

WE pulled my kids out of public school after 8th grade. It was teaching to the lowest denominator in terms of 'equity' which became more glaring once Covid hit.

They are in a private HS with deadlines (gasp), pop quizzes, missing assignments get a "0", you can go for help--and learn what you got wrong--but that won't bump you grade up to an "A", much of the writing is now done in class--by pen and paper so not to abuse chatgpt, etc. Honor code about that as well. Courses aren't just 'teach to the test' and tests aren't all multiple choice. Lots of writing. Lots of showing your work in math, etc.., lots of assignments that push past cursory knowledge. Parents also aren't in the mix. The kids are made to be self-sufficient from Day 1. They have a schedule a lot like colleges---exam weeks, midterms, etc.

It sucks to pay, but they are going to be so much better prepared for college.

[Anonymous]

TO has nothing to do with it.

Some parents are just mad their "high stats" kid got rejected submitting 1500+ score while exceptional TO applicants were admitted.

[Anonymous]

Americans have been brainwashed and dumbed down to a level that you can't imagine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I teach at community colleges. My classes are very heavy in requiring actual thinking, but the students seem prepared for only multiple-choice exams that require them to “recognize” answers, not come up with answers via intense thinking.

Student preparedness has been going down for about 10 yrs. I put most of the blame on high school teachers & their reliance on Scantrons. When a test approaches, the students’ main concern is whether they have to provide their own Scantrons. They are shocked when I tell them I’ve never used them for classroom evaluations.

Think about it. If your exam is all multiple-choice, you don’t really have to KNOW the material to pass; you usually just have to be vaguely familiar with the material.

OP - that is a good point. I have noticed that the drivers education exams for teens are also multiple choice (many all of the above answers) and I wondered whether that is a good indicator of actual knowledge needed to drive safely .

I must say high school was much more memorization and regurgitation when I was young so I loved the leap to thinking critically in college. I can see how that might be a more difficult leap for some who are only doing multiple choice questions in HS.

I think this is what Common Core "Explain Your Thinking" curriculum was trying to address. CC may have failed in the way it was implemented for the most part, but I agree with the reasoning behind it. I agree with you that students need to "explain your thinking" more. That develops better critical thinking skills than multiple choice answers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Americans have been brainwashed and dumbed down to a level that you can't imagine.

Yep. Merit has been taken out of the equation. Which brain surgeon do you want? I'll take the smartest and most skilled---don't care anything about their personal life or race or religion or sexual orientation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Americans have been brainwashed and dumbed down to a level that you can't imagine.

Yep. Merit has been taken out of the equation. Which brain surgeon do you want? I'll take the smartest and most skilled---don't care anything about their personal life or race or religion or sexual orientation.

Sounds about white.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Americans have been brainwashed and dumbed down to a level that you can't imagine.

Yep. Merit has been taken out of the equation. Which brain surgeon do you want? I'll take the smartest and most skilled---don't care anything about their personal life or race or religion or sexual orientation.

Sounds about white.

No. The ones we have used have been Indian and Asian.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The New Infantilism began around 15 or 20 years ago. Students barely read anymore. And it's gotten worse with social media "discourse" becoming so important. They're more interested in Tiktok than Tolstoy.

And what often goes unsaid is that these students have no idea how to write a paper. They aren't taught how. They don't have the focus. They don't have the skills. What do you usually do in college? Think, learn how to frame an argument, and write papers.