Honors for All: when will it end

[Anonymous]

Transplant_1 wrote:Out of curiousity (and looking to move from DC to lower MoCo) I printed out the course selections for each grade for Whitman, and WJ (ran out of energy for BCC) since these are best fit my commuting needs. It's interesting how they differ even from each other, and which / where there is "honors for all" for which subjects and at which grade level.

English:
-- WJ:
Essentially for all grade levels, WJ does not have "regular" classes -- only "honors", and more differentiated ESOL classes.
For each of junior and senior year, WJ provides only 1 AP option -- AP Lang and Comp for junior year, AP Lit and Comp for senior year.

-- Whitman
Whitman is more differentiated for non ESOL. See below. Like, WJ, Whitman offers AP Lang and Comp for junior year, but for senior year offers 2 AP options, not just 1, - Lang and Comp, and Lit and Comp.

This is probably bc WJ has a larger ESOL population that resources are directed to (no politic-ing, equity bashing, etc. Just, .... this is what it is)

9th: both have only Honors English and ESOL english (WJ has more ESOL differentiated levels.)

10th: Whitman has regular, honors, and ESOL. WJ doesn't have regular, only honors, and various levels of ESOL.

11th: Whitman has reg, honors, AP, and ESOL. Again, WJ doesn't have reg, but honors, AP, and ESOL.

12th: Whitman has honors, 2 AP options, and one ESOL. WJ has honors, one AP option (different than the one in junior year,) and ESOL.

Social Studies:
WJ has more differentiation. Maybe bc it has more heterogenous population, and so provide more options and pathways for different level of student readiness for academic achivement. I think this would benefit not only ESOL, but non-ESOL kids who need more time to gear up for academic AP work.

9: Whitman has only 2 options -- honors US history OR AP US govt. WJ has three non-ESOL options: US History reg and honors; OR AP US govt.

10: Whitman has US Govt has three levels -- reg, honors, AP; for US History, it has only 2 levels: honors and AP. WJ has three (non ESOL) levels for each of US Govt and US history.

11 and 12th grade: The two schools really differ from each other for these grades. And each offers the same for 11th and 12th grade. For 11th and 12, Whitman offers only Modern World History at 3 levels: Reg, hon, AP. WJ has the same as 10th grade, three levels for each of US Hist and US Govt, and also provides World History for 2 levels -Honors and AP.

This narrowing of Whitman for 11th and 12 grade -- offering only 3 levels of World Hisory -- is a bit surprising.

Science:
9th: Both offer only Biology at 2 levels - reg and honors, with WJ having more ESOL options.

10th: They differ in this year. Both offer Chemisty and Physics at 2 levels: reg, honors. Whitman offers only one AP - AP Physics. WJ offers two levels of AP Physics, and also AP Chem, and AP Env Sci.

11th: Both continue offering what they did in 10th grade. Whitman adds AP Chem, 4 diff levels of AP Physics, 3 levels of Bio (reg, honors, AP), AP Env Sci, and about 4 specialized electives. WJ adds AP Bio (no regular or honors like Whitman, just AP), two levels of AP Physics, and two specialized electives.

12th: Whitman offers the same wide offering as it did in 11th grade. WJ adds two specialized electives.

It's interesting that Whitman offers reg and honors Bio for 11th and 12th, but WJ does not.

Math:
For Math, I can only say that each offers a lot of differentiation.

This may not be clear from the WJ course bulletin, but WJ has the Apex signature program. There are a few (English, Biology) non-AP, higher level honors classes in 9th and 10h associaed with that program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The privates may be getting rid of the classes but students are still expected to take the tests.

PP here. The private schools my kids attend(ed) never "got rid of the classes." The number of AP classes is just less than in public schools and start later. Not sure what you mean about them being "expected to take the tests."

Another big difference is that students have to be approved by faculty to take any honors or AP classes, which keeps the classes on a high level. My daughter knows quite a few students who were upset they were not approved for honors English for example.

Admissions at the big privates for the unhooked are in the toilet.

Nope. Just wonder over to the private school forum and peek at the Instagram links. It was a great year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kids would have been Churchill HS students. We pulled the first one out after middle school and the second one never attended an MCPS school. What we learned by accident is that the private schools they attend offer much fewer AP courses that start in junior year. So the pressure on the kids is much less and they are still surrounded by strong academic students. My oldest got into and just graduated from a top 20 university. My youngest just completed 9th grade and next year will take 3 honors classes...no APs offered in 10th. The school she attends is small and sent 25% of their graduates to top 20 schools last year.

In my opinion, private school pays off big in this area...unless you have a kid that thrives on being stressed out. I don't know too many kids like that.

How would you possibly know the stress levels of mcps HS kids when yours did not attend? My MCPS kid is also at a t20 school and did not find his very stressful.

Read it right here. Also my oldest has many MCPS friends. The pressure to take tons of APs is over the top.

[Anonymous]

Transplant_1 wrote:Out of curiousity (and looking to move from DC to lower MoCo) I printed out the course selections for each grade for Whitman, and WJ (ran out of energy for BCC) since these are best fit my commuting needs. It's interesting how they differ even from each other, and which / where there is "honors for all" for which subjects and at which grade level.

English:
-- WJ:
Essentially for all grade levels, WJ does not have "regular" classes -- only "honors", and more differentiated ESOL classes.
For each of junior and senior year, WJ provides only 1 AP option -- AP Lang and Comp for junior year, AP Lit and Comp for senior year.

-- Whitman
Whitman is more differentiated for non ESOL. See below. Like, WJ, Whitman offers AP Lang and Comp for junior year, but for senior year offers 2 AP options, not just 1, - Lang and Comp, and Lit and Comp.

This is probably bc WJ has a larger ESOL population that resources are directed to (no politic-ing, equity bashing, etc. Just, .... this is what it is)

9th: both have only Honors English and ESOL english (WJ has more ESOL differentiated levels.)

10th: Whitman has regular, honors, and ESOL. WJ doesn't have regular, only honors, and various levels of ESOL.

11th: Whitman has reg, honors, AP, and ESOL. Again, WJ doesn't have reg, but honors, AP, and ESOL.

12th: Whitman has honors, 2 AP options, and one ESOL. WJ has honors, one AP option (different than the one in junior year,) and ESOL.

Social Studies:
WJ has more differentiation. Maybe bc it has more heterogenous population, and so provide more options and pathways for different level of student readiness for academic achivement. I think this would benefit not only ESOL, but non-ESOL kids who need more time to gear up for academic AP work.

9: Whitman has only 2 options -- honors US history OR AP US govt. WJ has three non-ESOL options: US History reg and honors; OR AP US govt.

10: Whitman has US Govt has three levels -- reg, honors, AP; for US History, it has only 2 levels: honors and AP. WJ has three (non ESOL) levels for each of US Govt and US history.

11 and 12th grade: The two schools really differ from each other for these grades. And each offers the same for 11th and 12th grade. For 11th and 12, Whitman offers only Modern World History at 3 levels: Reg, hon, AP. WJ has the same as 10th grade, three levels for each of US Hist and US Govt, and also provides World History for 2 levels -Honors and AP.

This narrowing of Whitman for 11th and 12 grade -- offering only 3 levels of World Hisory -- is a bit surprising.

Science:
9th: Both offer only Biology at 2 levels - reg and honors, with WJ having more ESOL options.

10th: They differ in this year. Both offer Chemisty and Physics at 2 levels: reg, honors. Whitman offers only one AP - AP Physics. WJ offers two levels of AP Physics, and also AP Chem, and AP Env Sci.

11th: Both continue offering what they did in 10th grade. Whitman adds AP Chem, 4 diff levels of AP Physics, 3 levels of Bio (reg, honors, AP), AP Env Sci, and about 4 specialized electives. WJ adds AP Bio (no regular or honors like Whitman, just AP), two levels of AP Physics, and two specialized electives.

12th: Whitman offers the same wide offering as it did in 11th grade. WJ adds two specialized electives.

It's interesting that Whitman offers reg and honors Bio for 11th and 12th, but WJ does not.

Math:
For Math, I can only say that each offers a lot of differentiation.

When schools have honors English for all in 9th and then differntiation in 10th, that means they are rolling out the honors-for-all model starting with current 9th graders. Next year 9th and 10th graders will have honors-for-all, the year after 9th-11th graders, and the year after that the HS will be honors-for-all for all grades.

[Transplant_1]

Thank you for that clarification.

So, for both schools, in 9th grade, for English, there is only "honors" english.

But for other subjects, there is still some differentiation in 9th grade.

For 9th grade
-- Social studies: WJ has reg, honors, AP.
Although, Whitman has only 2 options -- honors US history OR AP US govt.

-- Both are keeping a reg and honors for Biology.

Are you (or others, or has MCPS said) that year after year, they'll chip away at the other subjects, and just create an AP class and the non-AP class that will be called "Honors"?

[Anonymous]

I’m a HS teacher and I hate the honors for all model. I have 30+ kids in the class which makes true differentiation impossible. My top kids find the class too easy and mentally check out while a bunch of kids find it too hard and are struggling with Ds and Es. It feels like a no-win situation and I am unable to teach at a genuine honors level

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a HS teacher and I hate the honors for all model. I have 30+ kids in the class which makes true differentiation impossible. My top kids find the class too easy and mentally check out while a bunch of kids find it too hard and are struggling with Ds and Es. It feels like a no-win situation and I am unable to teach at a genuine honors level

So is it still using the honors curriculum, or the regular curriculum but they label it as honors? Or some combination of the two?

[Anonymous]

My son's HS went through this (not in the DC area). They switched to Honors for All over the summer so it was both a surprise and a done deal in the fall. I don't know what the previous Honors course involved but the new one had lots of "fun" assignments like making book covers, PowerPoint presentations, posters and maybe two traditional essays. The latter involved very little instruction and a lot of peer editing which could be helpful or useless depending on your assigned partner. My nonartistic kid disliked it and learned very little about good writing.

[Anonymous]

Transplant_1 wrote:Thank you for that clarification.

So, for both schools, in 9th grade, for English, there is only "honors" english.

But for other subjects, there is still some differentiation in 9th grade.

For 9th grade
-- Social studies: WJ has reg, honors, AP.
Although, Whitman has only 2 options -- honors US history OR AP US govt.

-- Both are keeping a reg and honors for Biology.

Are you (or others, or has MCPS said) that year after year, they'll chip away at the other subjects, and just create an AP class and the non-AP class that will be called "Honors"?

Honors-for-all is both English and social studies , and I think frequently foreigh language starting in year 3.

Math has meaningful levels.

Science in theory does, but in some schools regular and honors students are in class together so get the same content -- exams are more difficult for honors students.

[Transplant_1]

Arlington public school system is not moving / does not do this. Why is MCPS? Both have the similar demographics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m a HS teacher and I hate the honors for all model. I have 30+ kids in the class which makes true differentiation impossible. My top kids find the class too easy and mentally check out while a bunch of kids find it too hard and are struggling with Ds and Es. It feels like a no-win situation and I am unable to teach at a genuine honors level

This model provides the only way to close the gap. It provides the illusion that they're doing this since it isn't otherwise a real possibility and lowering the bar for the top students makes it look like they've improved things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The privates may be getting rid of the classes but students are still expected to take the tests.

PP here. The private schools my kids attend(ed) never "got rid of the classes." The number of AP classes is just less than in public schools and start later. Not sure what you mean about them being "expected to take the tests."

Another big difference is that students have to be approved by faculty to take any honors or AP classes, which keeps the classes on a high level. My daughter knows quite a few students who were upset they were not approved for honors English for example.

Admissions at the big privates for the unhooked are in the toilet.

Nope. Just wonder over to the private school forum and peek at the Instagram links. It was a great year.

Really? I did that and aside from URMs or hooked students it was a blood bath.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately, everyone who has any resources whatsoever thinks their child is either highly gifted or gifted and disabled. This has been a trend for the past 10 years. As a teacher, I can tell you that most of the kids that the parents say are so gifted are really only average to slightly above but they have tons of parent support. UMC parents here simply cannot accept that their child is probably more likely average with privilege. This means the district bends over backwards to help make the parents feel special. Even more frustrating are the parents who demand special Ed services because they think their child is so gifted but they are only able to perform at the average range because they have a “disability” (adhd, autism, anxiety). Turns out most of these kids just feel bad about themselves because they can’t live up to the ridiculous expectations. It makes me laugh how we are constantly trying to make parents feel better about themselves by pretending we agree with them but then again, it’s not worth the tantrums the families take. Sadly, the kids end up never being able to live up to these ridiculous expectations.

WHEW! You said a word right here. I definitely think many parents default to their kids having a disability as a way to cope with some kind of disappointment on why their child isn't the whiz kid they believe them to be.

Preach! I’m a teacher and this is the thing we’re not supposed to say out loud.

[Transplant_1]

Anonymous wrote:This model provides the only way to close the gap. It provides the illusion that they're doing this since it isn't otherwise a real possibility and lowering the bar for the top students makes it look like they've improved things.

I know that's the "cynical" answer, but is there more in terms of real data and theory?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The privates may be getting rid of the classes but students are still expected to take the tests.

PP here. The private schools my kids attend(ed) never "got rid of the classes." The number of AP classes is just less than in public schools and start later. Not sure what you mean about them being "expected to take the tests."

Another big difference is that students have to be approved by faculty to take any honors or AP classes, which keeps the classes on a high level. My daughter knows quite a few students who were upset they were not approved for honors English for example.

Admissions at the big privates for the unhooked are in the toilet.

Nope. Just wonder over to the private school forum and peek at the Instagram links. It was a great year.

Really? I did that and aside from URMs or hooked students it was a blood bath.

Not at all, but I see you really want to believe that lol.