Will they talk about Covid shut down like the Great Depression

[Anonymous]

No, it will be a minor footnote when the history is written explaining why people in advanced economics stopped having children, leading to massive decline in living standards etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It was a horrible time if you had little kids and were working--at least in the US and especially in blue areas. Seriously, it was not nearly as bad in other areas that had moved on much earlier. After vaccines were widely available for adults, it would have been much better for my family's mental health to be in a place that DNGAF.

Yes. My cousin lives in Florida, and his kids were back in school in the fall of 2020 with no masks and almost no restrictions. All their activities, sports and other extracurriculars were normal. The difference in Florida is that the Governor was able to force the teachers to go back to work. If they refused, they got fired. They were aghast at the restrictions imposed on kids up here. We spent a lot of time down there for vacations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pandemic really has made me fundamentally not trust schools. I don't know how to let it go. I didn't move during the pandemic for an open school (because I was actually financially ruined), but I still feel the need to move to just find a different school district. Just to get a cleaner slate.

Trust isn't something that is easy to get back once it has been ruined.

Same, I don't trust schools and I have lost the ability to believe that anyone associated with a school actually has a vested interest in my children.

It's really altered my perception of teachers. It's not that I don't appreciate what they do, I do. But I have limited capacity to believe that they, as a group, are invested in the well being of children. I think individual teachers may be invested in certain groups of kids. But I don't view the teaching profession as focused on the well-being of children. I think teacher's unions and educational organizations exist primarily for their own benefit, and if children benefit that's a nice side effect but not necessary for them to accomplish their goals.

I work in healthcare and think about how I and others took seriously our oaths to protect and care for our patients during the single biggest healthcare crisis of my lifetime. I simply do not see that same dedication or willingness to sacrifice on the part of teachers. They looked out for themselves and while I guess you can't fault them for that (most people did), coming from another helping profession where I don't think we put ourselves first at all, it was somewhat shocking to me to realize this.

Yeah, it was pretty shocking just how little teachers and the teachers' unions cared about schoolchildren. You become a teacher because, presumably, you have an interest in the wellbeing of children, at least as one factor. And yet, teachers were the biggest obstruction to getting kids back into schools. If it had been left to the teachers in places like the DC area and California, schools would have remained virtual through 2022.

Before the pandemic, we were pretty engaged with our school community. Now, we're mostly checked out. We didn't even re-up our membership with the PTA.

This. I’m a “front line” public service worker and would loved to have skipped my commute, saved on gas, and only done a few hours a day of abridged work, but I took an oath and had a job to do. Teachers, schools, EVERYONE, failed our children. I don’t ever want to hear another teacher complaining about one child who virtual schooled during the pandemic who is behind academically or socially. It is YOUR fault. Hope you enjoyed your easy ride. Our kids have paid the price.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pandemic really has made me fundamentally not trust schools. I don't know how to let it go. I didn't move during the pandemic for an open school (because I was actually financially ruined), but I still feel the need to move to just find a different school district. Just to get a cleaner slate.

Trust isn't something that is easy to get back once it has been ruined.

Same, I don't trust schools and I have lost the ability to believe that anyone associated with a school actually has a vested interest in my children.

It's really altered my perception of teachers. It's not that I don't appreciate what they do, I do. But I have limited capacity to believe that they, as a group, are invested in the well being of children. I think individual teachers may be invested in certain groups of kids. But I don't view the teaching profession as focused on the well-being of children. I think teacher's unions and educational organizations exist primarily for their own benefit, and if children benefit that's a nice side effect but not necessary for them to accomplish their goals.

I work in healthcare and think about how I and others took seriously our oaths to protect and care for our patients during the single biggest healthcare crisis of my lifetime. I simply do not see that same dedication or willingness to sacrifice on the part of teachers. They looked out for themselves and while I guess you can't fault them for that (most people did), coming from another helping profession where I don't think we put ourselves first at all, it was somewhat shocking to me to realize this.

Yeah, it was pretty shocking just how little teachers and the teachers' unions cared about schoolchildren. You become a teacher because, presumably, you have an interest in the wellbeing of children, at least as one factor. And yet, teachers were the biggest obstruction to getting kids back into schools. If it had been left to the teachers in places like the DC area and California, schools would have remained virtual through 2022.

Before the pandemic, we were pretty engaged with our school community. Now, we're mostly checked out. We didn't even re-up our membership with the PTA.

This. I’m a “front line” public service worker and would loved to have skipped my commute, saved on gas, and only done a few hours a day of abridged work, but I took an oath and had a job to do. Teachers, schools, EVERYONE, failed our children. I don’t ever want to hear another teacher complaining about one child who virtual schooled during the pandemic who is behind academically or socially. It is YOUR fault. Hope you enjoyed your easy ride. Our kids have paid the price.

When DCPS did its partial reopening, we were in the first group to send our kids back because, unlike so many people around here, we knew the science (i.e., from very early on in the pandemic, it was clear that covid posed essentially zero risk to a healthy kid). I appreciate the teachers who came back for that reopening, but many refused. It's telling that the science teachers were both back in the first group, because they presumably understood the relative risks based on age.

My wife has family in Sweden. Because they have a government that understands science, their schools remained open with no restrictions.

[Anonymous]

A quick reminder for those of you bleating about teachers - the peak COVID period for Virginia was January 2021. If you think the teachers should have been back before the worst of the pandemic and before vaccines, then you are truly human trash.

[Anonymous]

No, much like the Great Influenza, we will probably have some limited improvements in public health and that is it.

People are already "moving on" and don't want to think about Covid. Except those of us who are still at risk due to other health conditions.

And, much like the Great Influenza, many people will be affected 20-30 year down the road. Most of the older (75+) people I knew when I was a child in the 1970s had Parkinson's disease; they had been young adults during the outbreaks and survived just fine, only to end up with viral Parkinson's decades later. No one talked about it and I had no idea until I started reading the history of that pandemic.

Economically, many people have been able to trade their lower paying service and teaching jobs for higher paying positions. While prices are up right now, many are doing better with less education than before the pandemic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A quick reminder for those of you bleating about teachers - the peak COVID period for Virginia was January 2021. If you think the teachers should have been back before the worst of the pandemic and before vaccines, then you are truly human trash.

European schools were open during that time. What makes teachers in the US so precious that they couldn't go back to work like their counterparts in places like France, the UK, Germany, the Nordic countries etc.?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pandemic really has made me fundamentally not trust schools. I don't know how to let it go. I didn't move during the pandemic for an open school (because I was actually financially ruined), but I still feel the need to move to just find a different school district. Just to get a cleaner slate.

Trust isn't something that is easy to get back once it has been ruined.

Same, I don't trust schools and I have lost the ability to believe that anyone associated with a school actually has a vested interest in my children.

It's really altered my perception of teachers. It's not that I don't appreciate what they do, I do. But I have limited capacity to believe that they, as a group, are invested in the well being of children. I think individual teachers may be invested in certain groups of kids. But I don't view the teaching profession as focused on the well-being of children. I think teacher's unions and educational organizations exist primarily for their own benefit, and if children benefit that's a nice side effect but not necessary for them to accomplish their goals.

I work in healthcare and think about how I and others took seriously our oaths to protect and care for our patients during the single biggest healthcare crisis of my lifetime. I simply do not see that same dedication or willingness to sacrifice on the part of teachers. They looked out for themselves and while I guess you can't fault them for that (most people did), coming from another helping profession where I don't think we put ourselves first at all, it was somewhat shocking to me to realize this.

Yeah, it was pretty shocking just how little teachers and the teachers' unions cared about schoolchildren. You become a teacher because, presumably, you have an interest in the wellbeing of children, at least as one factor. And yet, teachers were the biggest obstruction to getting kids back into schools. If it had been left to the teachers in places like the DC area and California, schools would have remained virtual through 2022.

Before the pandemic, we were pretty engaged with our school community. Now, we're mostly checked out. We didn't even re-up our membership with the PTA.

This. I’m a “front line” public service worker and would loved to have skipped my commute, saved on gas, and only done a few hours a day of abridged work, but I took an oath and had a job to do. Teachers, schools, EVERYONE, failed our children. I don’t ever want to hear another teacher complaining about one child who virtual schooled during the pandemic who is behind academically or socially. It is YOUR fault. Hope you enjoyed your easy ride. Our kids have paid the price.

When DCPS did its partial reopening, we were in the first group to send our kids back because, unlike so many people around here, we knew the science (i.e., from very early on in the pandemic, it was clear that covid posed essentially zero risk to a healthy kid). I appreciate the teachers who came back for that reopening, but many refused. It's telling that the science teachers were both back in the first group, because they presumably understood the relative risks based on age.

My wife has family in Sweden. Because they have a government that understands science, their schools remained open with no restrictions.

I'm the healthcare PP who posted about being so surprised at how little it seemed schools and teachers were willing to step up to get kids what they needed, given my experience in a hospital and the stuff we went through during Covid (and are still going through) to do our jobs and take care of people.

I do think when it came to school re-opening, a huge part of the problem was that teachers and people running schools are often misinformed about public health issues. Something I heard in my school district was "only when it's safe" regarding re-opening. But anyone who works in a healthcare setting understands that safe is a relative term and that it's not really possible to create an environment that eliminates all risk -- it's all about mitigation. The idea that we could only return kids to classrooms when everyone was vaccinated and we had 100% confidence no one would get Covid was kind of mind blowing to me. We had a ton of information about how to mitigate Covid risks in schools and had lots of examples of places in the world where schools had reopened (or never even closed) and what had helped. Heck, we had data indicating that school closures might be contributing to spread of Covid because of what kids and families had to do to as a result.

I wonder if one productive take-away we might get out of this whole fiasco is the need for decision-makers in schools to have better understanding of public health issues, and maybe better education for teachers and administrators on public health. If this happens again (and it likely will), if we approach it the same way I think it could honestly kill public school as we know it in this country. I can't imagine that's the outcome teachers desire?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, history books will cover covid, likely in the same way they cover the 1918 pandemic. School books will not talk about parenting challenges but there will be sociological studies on things like women in the workforce, widespread mental health, how pandemic babies do in school, etc.

I'm very sorry for what you went through. I hope you got help for your PPD and I hope things are better now. I think what you're describing is more about having small kids and no childcare or help: common I'm certain, but not a universal pandemic experience.

It was nothing like the 1918 pandemic which disproportionately killed young people. My great grandmother had to take in and raise her two orphaned nephews in 1918 when both their parents died within weeks of each other.
The actual disease Covid was a statistical blip. It was the governments insane overreaction that will go down in history combined with the social upheaval it pushed.

My U.S. history book had one page on the 1918 pandemic: some sepia toned photos of people in masks, a few lines about the spread and death toll, and a few lines about the geopolitical and economic consequences. I think covid will get the same. No grade school history books covered the kids orphaned by the flu and I predict none will cover those orphaned by covid (yes they exist) or the disruptions to home and school life. People just don't care to hear about the day to day difficulties, plus there was/is so much else going on politically that covid will be part of the background. Maybe if we get a Ken Burns documentary, he will read some parent letters (tweets?) in voiceover.

I remember having a school project to interview my grandparents about the Depression and WWII, and then more recently I got my parents that Storyworth kit for recording their memories of family life. That's the kind of record where you get the flavor of day to day life. I think it would be interesting to do some kind of family journal / memory book about covid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A quick reminder for those of you bleating about teachers - the peak COVID period for Virginia was January 2021. If you think the teachers should have been back before the worst of the pandemic and before vaccines, then you are truly human trash.

European schools were open during that time. What makes teachers in the US so precious that they couldn't go back to work like their counterparts in places like France, the UK, Germany, the Nordic countries etc.?

It really is a weird thing, when you think about it. And it wasn't even just a handful of European countries. It was most of the world, including much of Asia, Europe, South America, and Africa. The US was the only place with protracted school shutdowns of a year or more, and it wasn't even the entire US -- much of the US opened with hybrid plans in the fall of 2020, within 5 months of the initial shut down.

The longer it went on, the more nonsensical it became. I remember being fully on board in spring of 2020, and then a little frustrated but understanding when they delayed re-opening in fall 2020. Then when vaccines came out, I was like "okay, soon." Then bars, restaurants, retail stores re-opened, people started traveling, etc. And our schools were still closed -- maybe a handful of in-person spots for high-risk kids but that's it.

Looking back, the idea that the first time my kids set foot in a classroom after March 2020 was the end of August 2021 is insane. And people keep talking about it like it was unavoidable and clearly worth it. It wasn't and it wasn't! We were part of a tiny minority of the globe that burdened kids and families in that way, and it wasn't even remotely worth it, but for some reason people are afraid to admit that. It's crazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think the pandemic really has made me fundamentally not trust schools. I don't know how to let it go. I didn't move during the pandemic for an open school (because I was actually financially ruined), but I still feel the need to move to just find a different school district. Just to get a cleaner slate.

Trust isn't something that is easy to get back once it has been ruined.

Same, I don't trust schools and I have lost the ability to believe that anyone associated with a school actually has a vested interest in my children.

It's really altered my perception of teachers. It's not that I don't appreciate what they do, I do. But I have limited capacity to believe that they, as a group, are invested in the well being of children. I think individual teachers may be invested in certain groups of kids. But I don't view the teaching profession as focused on the well-being of children. I think teacher's unions and educational organizations exist primarily for their own benefit, and if children benefit that's a nice side effect but not necessary for them to accomplish their goals.

I work in healthcare and think about how I and others took seriously our oaths to protect and care for our patients during the single biggest healthcare crisis of my lifetime. I simply do not see that same dedication or willingness to sacrifice on the part of teachers. They looked out for themselves and while I guess you can't fault them for that (most people did), coming from another helping profession where I don't think we put ourselves first at all, it was somewhat shocking to me to realize this.

Yeah, it was pretty shocking just how little teachers and the teachers' unions cared about schoolchildren. You become a teacher because, presumably, you have an interest in the wellbeing of children, at least as one factor. And yet, teachers were the biggest obstruction to getting kids back into schools. If it had been left to the teachers in places like the DC area and California, schools would have remained virtual through 2022.

Before the pandemic, we were pretty engaged with our school community. Now, we're mostly checked out. We didn't even re-up our membership with the PTA.

This. I’m a “front line” public service worker and would loved to have skipped my commute, saved on gas, and only done a few hours a day of abridged work, but I took an oath and had a job to do. Teachers, schools, EVERYONE, failed our children. I don’t ever want to hear another teacher complaining about one child who virtual schooled during the pandemic who is behind academically or socially. It is YOUR fault. Hope you enjoyed your easy ride. Our kids have paid the price.

When DCPS did its partial reopening, we were in the first group to send our kids back because, unlike so many people around here, we knew the science (i.e., from very early on in the pandemic, it was clear that covid posed essentially zero risk to a healthy kid). I appreciate the teachers who came back for that reopening, but many refused. It's telling that the science teachers were both back in the first group, because they presumably understood the relative risks based on age.

My wife has family in Sweden. Because they have a government that understands science, their schools remained open with no restrictions.

I'm the healthcare PP who posted about being so surprised at how little it seemed schools and teachers were willing to step up to get kids what they needed, given my experience in a hospital and the stuff we went through during Covid (and are still going through) to do our jobs and take care of people.

I do think when it came to school re-opening, a huge part of the problem was that teachers and people running schools are often misinformed about public health issues. Something I heard in my school district was "only when it's safe" regarding re-opening. But anyone who works in a healthcare setting understands that safe is a relative term and that it's not really possible to create an environment that eliminates all risk -- it's all about mitigation. The idea that we could only return kids to classrooms when everyone was vaccinated and we had 100% confidence no one would get Covid was kind of mind blowing to me. We had a ton of information about how to mitigate Covid risks in schools and had lots of examples of places in the world where schools had reopened (or never even closed) and what had helped. Heck, we had data indicating that school closures might be contributing to spread of Covid because of what kids and families had to do to as a result.

I wonder if one productive take-away we might get out of this whole fiasco is the need for decision-makers in schools to have better understanding of public health issues, and maybe better education for teachers and administrators on public health. If this happens again (and it likely will), if we approach it the same way I think it could honestly kill public school as we know it in this country. I can't imagine that's the outcome teachers desire?

The thing that really made me facepalm was reading survey results where people overestimated the risks of dying from covid by a huge, huge amount. Americans really believed that you had something like a 20% chance of dying if you got Covid (with Democrats overestimating the risks much more than Republicans). Nobody in government or media did anything to correct this misinformation.

We knew from very early on who was at risk from Covid, and it wasn't schoolkids, and it wasn't most teachers, either. And, like you noted, we had plenty of other countries we could look to if we wanted to know whether reopening schools was safe (it was). But, the government ignored all that and just gave in to the teachers' unions because they're politically powerful (and there's no group advocating for the interests of parents).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was your husband working in person?

My husband was working in person. As was his his ex. They were essential workers.

And we shuttled the kids between the two of our households.

I am very high risk. For Covid complications.

It was a terrifying time. I have to tell you that I got very internally fed up with all the people who were able to work fully remotely and stay home safely with their kids and houses in non-divorced families. They were basically safe from Covid. For many of us or risking death and long-term sickness every day and constantly having to worry about that stress.

So, I got pretty frustrated at all the well off parents Who were able to completely stay home for some of us were risking sickness and death.

I also realize that a lot of my friends who are well off had actually outsourced a lot of parenting before the pandemic. They were used to having nannies come in the morning, my friends went off to work, and by the time my friends came home, the kids were bathed and fed and all my friends really had to do is play with them for half an hour before bed. Once they actually had to care for their children full-time, they went crazy. Actually, I even had friends who took their nannies with them to their country houses who still went crazy being around the kids all the time.

They were totally safe from COVID, they had their jobs, Their families were safe, and yet all they did was complain. I thought it was really turned off given the fact that household like mine for dealing with the stress of covid coming into their lives.

So yeah, I didn’t feel too bad for parents Who were able to stay home and work remotely with their kids staying home as well. In fact, their vocal whining and complaining really pissed me off at times. Because they were actually very very lucky.

Now if your husband was working in person and therefore you were dealing with the constant threat of COVID as well, then I totally sympathize.

What did you want us to? Quit our jobs as lawyers or engineers (my husband and I) and volunteer to be a nurse?

I wanted you to realize how lucky you were to be able to stay at home safe with your family rather than whining about how horrible life was from your country home with your sourdough starters. And to recognize that non essential workers staying at home helped lower community spread and made things safer for those who DID have to work in person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Was your husband working in person?

My husband was working in person. As was his his ex. They were essential workers.

And we shuttled the kids between the two of our households.

I am very high risk. For Covid complications.

It was a terrifying time. I have to tell you that I got very internally fed up with all the people who were able to work fully remotely and stay home safely with their kids and houses in non-divorced families. They were basically safe from Covid. For many of us or risking death and long-term sickness every day and constantly having to worry about that stress.

So, I got pretty frustrated at all the well off parents Who were able to completely stay home for some of us were risking sickness and death.

I also realize that a lot of my friends who are well off had actually outsourced a lot of parenting before the pandemic. They were used to having nannies come in the morning, my friends went off to work, and by the time my friends came home, the kids were bathed and fed and all my friends really had to do is play with them for half an hour before bed. Once they actually had to care for their children full-time, they went crazy. Actually, I even had friends who took their nannies with them to their country houses who still went crazy being around the kids all the time.

They were totally safe from COVID, they had their jobs, Their families were safe, and yet all they did was complain. I thought it was really turned off given the fact that household like mine for dealing with the stress of covid coming into their lives.

So yeah, I didn’t feel too bad for parents Who were able to stay home and work remotely with their kids staying home as well. In fact, their vocal whining and complaining really pissed me off at times. Because they were actually very very lucky.

Now if your husband was working in person and therefore you were dealing with the constant threat of COVID as well, then I totally sympathize.

What did you want us to? Quit our jobs as lawyers or engineers (my husband and I) and volunteer to be a nurse?

I wanted you to realize how lucky you were to be able to stay at home safe with your family rather than whining about how horrible life was from your country home with your sourdough starters. And to recognize that non essential workers staying at home helped lower community spread and made things safer for those who DID have to work in person.

And I wanted people who were safely at home to stop posting about how they were helping small businesses and restuarant workers by ordering take out when what they were really doing was putting restaurant workers lives at risk and keeping them from being able to get unemployment.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A quick reminder for those of you bleating about teachers - the peak COVID period for Virginia was January 2021. If you think the teachers should have been back before the worst of the pandemic and before vaccines, then you are truly human trash.

European schools were open during that time. What makes teachers in the US so precious that they couldn't go back to work like their counterparts in places like France, the UK, Germany, the Nordic countries etc.?

It really is a weird thing, when you think about it. And it wasn't even just a handful of European countries. It was most of the world, including much of Asia, Europe, South America, and Africa. The US was the only place with protracted school shutdowns of a year or more, and it wasn't even the entire US -- much of the US opened with hybrid plans in the fall of 2020, within 5 months of the initial shut down.

The longer it went on, the more nonsensical it became. I remember being fully on board in spring of 2020, and then a little frustrated but understanding when they delayed re-opening in fall 2020. Then when vaccines came out, I was like "okay, soon." Then bars, restaurants, retail stores re-opened, people started traveling, etc. And our schools were still closed -- maybe a handful of in-person spots for high-risk kids but that's it.

Looking back, the idea that the first time my kids set foot in a classroom after March 2020 was the end of August 2021 is insane. And people keep talking about it like it was unavoidable and clearly worth it. It wasn't and it wasn't! We were part of a tiny minority of the globe that burdened kids and families in that way, and it wasn't even remotely worth it, but for some reason people are afraid to admit that. It's crazy.

It's really odd, because people in the DC area pride themselves on how "educated" they are. They were aghast at how red states reopened schools. But, for a supposedly educated and sophisticated group of people, they were completely uncurious about the rest of the world and the evidence coming from there about schools. Sure, it's easy to dismiss Georgia reopening, because people around here look down at anyone from the South. But, how about Sweden, or France? In any other scenario, they would be looked upon by DC liberals as beacons of enlightenment that we should be emulating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A quick reminder for those of you bleating about teachers - the peak COVID period for Virginia was January 2021. If you think the teachers should have been back before the worst of the pandemic and before vaccines, then you are truly human trash.

European schools were open during that time. What makes teachers in the US so precious that they couldn't go back to work like their counterparts in places like France, the UK, Germany, the Nordic countries etc.?

It really is a weird thing, when you think about it. And it wasn't even just a handful of European countries. It was most of the world, including much of Asia, Europe, South America, and Africa. The US was the only place with protracted school shutdowns of a year or more, and it wasn't even the entire US -- much of the US opened with hybrid plans in the fall of 2020, within 5 months of the initial shut down.

The longer it went on, the more nonsensical it became. I remember being fully on board in spring of 2020, and then a little frustrated but understanding when they delayed re-opening in fall 2020. Then when vaccines came out, I was like "okay, soon." Then bars, restaurants, retail stores re-opened, people started traveling, etc. And our schools were still closed -- maybe a handful of in-person spots for high-risk kids but that's it.

Looking back, the idea that the first time my kids set foot in a classroom after March 2020 was the end of August 2021 is insane. And people keep talking about it like it was unavoidable and clearly worth it. It wasn't and it wasn't! We were part of a tiny minority of the globe that burdened kids and families in that way, and it wasn't even remotely worth it, but for some reason people are afraid to admit that. It's crazy.

In Europe, if someone get sicks, they have government sponsored health care. If they get disabled, there is a much better safety net for the disabled in terms of disability pay.

That is a huge difference. American workers were taking more risk.