If you left Big Law…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

If I were in your DH's shoes, I would try to ride it out at the firm for a few more years, and then transition. That will make a huge impact financially. But, it also depends on his own personal feelings about what is acceptable or bearable from his perspective. He's worked for the government, so I assume he knows what he's getting into, but note that there are a lot of unhappy government workers, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

NP
I cannot fathom why you've never done summer camps! Not for childcare, but summer enrichment. It could be personalities but my kids prefer hanging with other kids. You can afford it, for now at least. I like the idea of living off a new potential salary for a year before deciding, you could include budget camps too. Lol, I know that is not part of your consideration, I was just surprised. I think in that time you could start subbing to get your foot in the door and sample schools/ grade levels and environments you'd like to consider for your next job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

I’m a GS-15 lawyer with 3 kids in public school and a similar mortgage situation to yours, and my DH is pretty miserable with a stressful, high-paying job. A few years ago, we tried an experiment where I attempted to pay all our expenses for a year from my salary alone to give us a sense of what our lives would be like if he quit his job abruptly. I made it about 9 months before I needed a cash infusion, and those 9 months were awfully stressful. It probably would have been doable if we never ate out or spent money on other discretionary purchases, but that’s not fun if you are used to not budgeting.

I do have a lot of sympathy for your DH, as you only get one life and spending all your working hours in misery is a terrible way to live. I agree with others that it would make sense for your DH to look for a less stressful job that payers more than a government salary. I also think you are too quick to dismiss your potential future financial contributions to the family. It wouldn’t be very hard to get additional teaching certifications once your youngest is a bit older, and a public MS or HS teacher around here makes decent money.

Public school teachers are not paid based on what grade they teach. It’s simply a grid that looks at level of education (bachelors, masters, masters +30, etc.) on one axis and years of work on the other. OP could teacher kindergarten or AP calculus and would be paid the same.

Thanks. I didn’t know that. Even easier for OP, then. If you can work as a preschool teacher, it’s not a big jump to work as a lower elementary teacher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

I am the poster who asked why your husband is miserable.

I know many biglaw partners who are quite happy and have been for decades.

OP: Maybe it is because this is a DC based website, but the responses are unusual in my experience for one in your situation. I wonder how many posters are actually in biglaw based on the responses.

Your husband wants to quit after his most financially successful year. Of course, there is stress for one with a family of 5 to support and for one generating over a million dollars in annual income. In my opinion, he should tough it out for a few more years to see how he adjusts. If unwilling to do so, then there are more options than just government work. However, SEC attorneys can make about $250,000 while other US government attorneys at the GS-15 level are earning in the $160s to low $180s.

Anyone in biglaw should be aware of at least two other options--going in-house or making an "Of Counsel" agreement instead of being a partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you already know exactly how much you spend vs. save per year?

I don’t. I’m sure he does- he does all the money management. I know he saves a ton (like more than 1/3 of his salary). But to be honest we don’t track our spending. We’ve never had any sort of budget because we haven’t had to. But neither of us are big spenders so we’ve always lived way under our means.

I mean this kindly. But you need to start understanding your household finances. Your anxiety which is based, in part on lack of knowledge, is preventing you from helping your husband leave an unnecessarily difficult professional existence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

I am the poster who asked why your husband is miserable.

I know many biglaw partners who are quite happy and have been for decades.

OP: Maybe it is because this is a DC based website, but the responses are unusual in my experience for one in your situation. I wonder how many posters are actually in biglaw based on the responses.

Your husband wants to quit after his most financially successful year. Of course, there is stress for one with a family of 5 to support and for one generating over a million dollars in annual income. In my opinion, he should tough it out for a few more years to see how he adjusts. If unwilling to do so, then there are more options than just government work. However, SEC attorneys can make about $250,000 while other US government attorneys at the GS-15 level are earning in the $160s to low $180s.

Anyone in biglaw should be aware of at least two other options--going in-house or making an "Of Counsel" agreement instead of being a partner.

The draw of government is that Op's dh already worked there between firms and loved it. I think this is a cyclical thing with lawyers wanting to quit though, things settle and will ramp up again.

[Anonymous]

I have no problem with you dh leaving, but I think he needs to accept that if he leaves there is a more than fair chance that he never goes back and that is for what you need to financially plan.

It would make me very nervous to spend more than I bring in even with the cash available.

And I say this having left a job that I was extraordinarily good at and making truly mind blowing money. But when I left I wanted to know that I would never have to come back under any circumstance.

[Anonymous]

Also, since--if I understand correctly--you are no longer in the DC area, are you willing to share the field of law in which your husband specializes ? I ask because there may be a few other options which he should consider depending upon his practice area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DH has been a Big Law partner for five years now (one of the top grossing firms in the country). He makes 7 figures including his bonus. And he hates it. He’s miserable. He wants to take a government job for a few years and test it out- says he doesn’t want at the end of his life to say he never tried something else. He’s in a pretty specialized law section and has been successful so he’s pretty confident he would get hired by the government and go back to private if/when he needs.

My question is for anyone who did this- what was your financial cushion? We have about $800,000 equity in our $1.6 M house, with a $4500 monthly mortage. Three kids, one in private preschool and two in public schools in bethesda. Two cars paid for. No debt. Close to $2M in savings not counting house equity. Close to $700,000 in 529’s for the kids (also not counted toward savings). DH feels comfortable living below our means for a few years and draining some of our savings so he can have a job that brings him happiness for some time, knowing he could go back to private if need be. It makes me more anxious. (And I do stay at home, it was a choice we both made when our oldest child was born. I was a preschool teacher and the cost of a nanny or daycare would have been more than I made.). We don’t live extravagant lives- no country clubs, not much expensive travel, no second homes, only once a month cleaners, etc. I want him to be happy more than anything but I worry about whether we can afford to live off of one government salary, even for a few years.

OP: After reading both of your posts in this thread, I suspect that you are fabricating at least some of the "facts".

In your first post, you share that your husband "wants to take a government job for a few years and test it out-says he doesn't want at the end of his life to say he never tried anything else." Yet, in your second post, you assert that he has worked in government before for several years and loved it. Which is it ?

Also, the fact that your husband--a very experienced attorney who has achieved partnership status--has not discussed in-house or "of counsel" options.

The OP's posts seem contradictory is a couple of key areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do you already know exactly how much you spend vs. save per year?

I don’t. I’m sure he does- he does all the money management. I know he saves a ton (like more than 1/3 of his salary). But to be honest we don’t track our spending. We’ve never had any sort of budget because we haven’t had to. But neither of us are big spenders so we’ve always lived way under our means.

I mean this kindly. But you need to start understanding your household finances. Your anxiety which is based, in part on lack of knowledge, is preventing you from helping your husband leave an unnecessarily difficult professional existence.

You and your husband need to sit down and track what your total spending was over the past year (or two or three). You say that you don't live extravagant lives, but you should know exactly how much is going out $$-wise. Even non-extravagant day-to-day things can really add up. Many people spend way more than they think they do, simply because they never add it all up.

[Anonymous]

There's a lot of in-between 7 figure partner and lowly government attorney. Can he become GC at a trade association or a foundation? May not bring in $1M but could bring in $450k and have a much higher quality of life.

A smaller company or fund? Even a public company GC will probably work less hard.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

I’m a GS-15 lawyer with 3 kids in public school and a similar mortgage situation to yours, and my DH is pretty miserable with a stressful, high-paying job. A few years ago, we tried an experiment where I attempted to pay all our expenses for a year from my salary alone to give us a sense of what our lives would be like if he quit his job abruptly. I made it about 9 months before I needed a cash infusion, and those 9 months were awfully stressful. It probably would have been doable if we never ate out or spent money on other discretionary purchases, but that’s not fun if you are used to not budgeting.

I do have a lot of sympathy for your DH, as you only get one life and spending all your working hours in misery is a terrible way to live. I agree with others that it would make sense for your DH to look for a less stressful job that payers more than a government salary. I also think you are too quick to dismiss your potential future financial contributions to the family. It wouldn’t be very hard to get additional teaching certifications once your youngest is a bit older, and a public MS or HS teacher around here makes decent money.

Public school teachers are not paid based on what grade they teach. It’s simply a grid that looks at level of education (bachelors, masters, masters +30, etc.) on one axis and years of work on the other. OP could teacher kindergarten or AP calculus and would be paid the same.

Thanks. I didn’t know that. Even easier for OP, then. If you can work as a preschool teacher, it’s not a big jump to work as a lower elementary teacher.

Well, not necessarily. Many preschools will take people without specific education requirements etc. That’s not the case for a public school teacher. She need to get certified etc, which requires classwork. She could go private but pay and/or benefits will be much less if she’s not at a very selective private school (which she won’t get hired at anyway).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have no problem with you dh leaving, but I think he needs to accept that if he leaves there is a more than fair chance that he never goes back and that is for what you need to financially plan.

It would make me very nervous to spend more than I bring in even with the cash available.

And I say this having left a job that I was extraordinarily good at and making truly mind blowing money. But when I left I wanted to know that I would never have to come back under any circumstance.

Another former big law lawyer here and agree this is likely what will happen, particularly since op’s husband has worked in government before and wants to go back. Without knowing his speciality, hard to say whether going in house would be an option either instead of government or after another government stint.

[Anonymous]

OP, can you put more cash into the house to lower your mortgage? I find that I am personally more comfortable if I have more room in my monthly cash flow, so perhaps you are the same. If you can come close to paying off the house, then I think it would be pretty comfortable with the kids in public school. Another option is to see if your husband can work for a financial regulator where the salary will be substantially higher.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. Did not expect a four page thread on this but I should have known better

So to answer some questions, first off DH hasn’t been making 7 figures as partner for five years, just for the last one. He was 500K, then 650, 800, etc. He worked his way up.

Yes, our savings are our retirement as well, hence why I’m anxious.

For the PP who asked why he’s miserable- I think most people who have been in big law or know someone married to Big law know the answer, but it’s relentless. You’re either crazy busy and stressed or not busy and stressed because you’re worrying about billable hours. You’re at the mercy of the clients anytime day or night. But most of all it’s cutthroat and money and clients are power and DH just doesn’t like to operate that way.

And yes, he’s had a government job before. This is his second firm, and he did five years in govt between them. He loved every second and was so happy, but we then had a third child and our oldest was starting school and we needed to leave DC for better schools and a bigger house so he took one for the team.

And I have never said I’m not open to going back to work once my youngest is in school full day. But as I said I’m a teacher and even if I go back, while it would help, I’m not going to be bringing in anything significant.

Our spending is primarily mortgage, household bills, and food. He’s often not home for dinner and I have three young kids so we eat out or order in more than we would if he switched jobs. His law school loans are paid off, and we have no other debt. I think like a lot of people out discretionary spending is Amazon purchases and target runs and yes it all adds up. We would 100% be willing to rein that in. My concern stems just from the basics- food, mortgage, bills, etc. Our older two kids do a lot of sports (not summer camps because I’m
Home with them and they don’t need to) but we aren’t willing to budge in spending for their activities. We are also committed to 100% financing their undergraduate educations. Neither DH nor I had any undergraduate student loans and we feel very strongly about starting off kids off without debt. If they decide to go to med school or law school or what have you, if we are able to help we will but no guarantees in that front.

I am the poster who asked why your husband is miserable.

I know many biglaw partners who are quite happy and have been for decades.

OP: Maybe it is because this is a DC based website, but the responses are unusual in my experience for one in your situation. I wonder how many posters are actually in biglaw based on the responses.

Your husband wants to quit after his most financially successful year. Of course, there is stress for one with a family of 5 to support and for one generating over a million dollars in annual income. In my opinion, he should tough it out for a few more years to see how he adjusts. If unwilling to do so, then there are more options than just government work. However, SEC attorneys can make about $250,000 while other US government attorneys at the GS-15 level are earning in the $160s to low $180s.

Anyone in biglaw should be aware of at least two other options--going in-house or making an "Of Counsel" agreement instead of being a partner.

Have a very different experience re: the first bolded. Spouse and I both started careers in biglaw and most partners we know/knew are very unhappy. Being happy requires finding the right niche practice area and a special personality type.

That said, agree re: the second bolded. I'd absolutely recommend looking at in-house or Of Counsel arrangements. Should be able to find better income/happiness balance.