Is English now “Honors for All” at mcps high schools?

[Anonymous]

MCPS could care less about high performing students. I have had kids in this school system for a LONG time. My own thought is that everything started to go downhill for the neurotypical smart kid when NCLB was passed. NCLB also coincided with a massive influx of poor ESL students and a massive increase in special needs students (at all levels) due to an increase in Autism awareness and testing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There is no way every kid is bright enough to take honors anything. Not helping those kids work towards a future job,

Its not honors. It is grade level but parents are happier if it is called honors and kids GPAs are helped by the extra point...but really MCPS is out of 5 not 4 and hte collleges can see that.,

Yep. Same idea as why everyone is in Advanced English in Middle School. The class is a joke and there is no differentiation. The soft bigotry of low expectations is depressing and serves no one.

Advanced English was never supposed to be Honors English for MS or just for gifted kids. It was supposed to be extra lessons to teach analysis skills that the old curriculum didn’t include. Hypothetically, you could have a heterogenous classroom where some students did the extra lessons and others didn’t but there might be gifted kids in either group. Two things happened: Parents misunderstood the advanced label and thought it mean the kids must be gifted so they all wanted in. Curriculum specialists realized that all kids needed these analysis skills in order to read and write critically so they wanted all students to access the lessons.

At our MCPS middle school, there simply is no other option than advanced English. Parents can’t request anything. All kids are placed in the same (terrible) class.

That is a total joke to think that all kids can succesfully complete that class. What about the ones who can't read at that level?

There are levels within the levels. They just aren’t labeled, but you can tell which level by who the kids in the class are.

Not so sure this is true. I think it's more that some would like to imagine it. I remember a neighbor parent telling me their child was in the highest 1st grade math class which was different than what my kids was in who was scoring 20-30 points over the 99%. The reality was there were several enriched classes that were the same.

Mom of poor student here... Yes, in my kids "honors" English it was all the remedial kids in the same class.

At our MS the only English is "Advanced" so it's basically remedial. My kid's teacher is great but the course is just to basic. Their 4th grade CES was 2X more challenging.

Why didn’t your child go to the Communications magnet?

DP

What Communications Magnet? There is no such thing.

Probably referring to Eastern and MLK. There are very few spots at Eastern and MLK. There is a huge need in the county for honors English at every MS. After the Metis report, not only did MCPS not expand the number of MS magnet seats, they also did not provide an honors English curriculum. They did add honors social studies, but that is not English class.

They added "enriched" social studies classes, but there are no "Honors" middle school classes. Only (some) HS classes taught in middle school carry Honors credit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no way every kid is bright enough to take honors anything. Not helping those kids work towards a future job,

Its not honors. It is grade level but parents are happier if it is called honors and kids GPAs are helped by the extra point...but really MCPS is out of 5 not 4 and hte collleges can see that.,

Yep. Same idea as why everyone is in Advanced English in Middle School. The class is a joke and there is no differentiation. The soft bigotry of low expectations is depressing and serves no one.

Advanced English was never supposed to be Honors English for MS or just for gifted kids. It was supposed to be extra lessons to teach analysis skills that the old curriculum didn’t include. Hypothetically, you could have a heterogenous classroom where some students did the extra lessons and others didn’t but there might be gifted kids in either group. Two things happened: Parents misunderstood the advanced label and thought it mean the kids must be gifted so they all wanted in. Curriculum specialists realized that all kids needed these analysis skills in order to read and write critically so they wanted all students to access the lessons.

At our MCPS middle school, there simply is no other option than advanced English. Parents can’t request anything. All kids are placed in the same (terrible) class.

When it was rolled out to only a few schools originally, parents at other schools misunderstood the label and thought Honors MS English courses were being piloted. They completely missed the purpose of the course. When the pilot for the additional skills was over and schools were supposed to implement it, they got roped into creating sections that parents believed were Honors. Then, schools realized that to read and write critically all students needed exposure to these skills. Hence, only advanced is offered. It’s better to think of it as a 21st curriculum. Don’t all kids today need that? Wouldn’t you find it weird that some kids had a curriculum to prepare them for the 2020s and beyond, but other kids got a late 20th century curriculum? There might be a need for a level of MS English that is for gifted kids who aren’t in the Eastern and MLK magnets, but the dividing line should not be that GT-identified kids learn to the skills to read and write critically, but other kids don’t.

Except that is not happening AT ALL.

The level of instruction is so low and the expectations are so low that the kids really aren’t learning much at all. They barely read books, it’s just random excerpts from books. They get almost no feedback on their writing.

They have dumbed down the class SO much that pretty much none of the kids are actually learning the skills they should be learning to get ready for high school.

This is the path to equity and until they realize that is foolishness it's what we'll get. I'm all for Equal Opportunity but not everyone wants the same outcomes even.

[Anonymous]

Getting back to the original question about high school classes, does anyone know of a school that still offers both on-level and Honors English classes? Both are still listed in the course bulletin.

http://coursebulletin.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/CourseLists/Index/68

[Anonymous]

Their research tells them, for this demographic population, headed to college, that unless a student has a disability or is an extreme outliner, the appropriate instruction is Honors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:MCPS could care less about high performing students. I have had kids in this school system for a LONG time. My own thought is that everything started to go downhill for the neurotypical smart kid when NCLB was passed. NCLB also coincided with a massive influx of poor ESL students and a massive increase in special needs students (at all levels) due to an increase in Autism awareness and testing.

Same here. Parents of high-achieving kids need to figure things out for themselves. MCPS does not want to support them. Not only that, MCPS has stated its main goal as closing the Achievement Gap. It would be in conflict with that goal, if MCPS tried to help the already higher-performing kids to do better.

It’s crazy that the public school system doesn’t do more to nurture, encourage and engage our high performing kids.

[Anonymous]

Whats the difference between honors and grade level?

Pace? Difficulty? Work load?

[Anonymous]

For curiosity, I checked the public school district that I went to the '80s and '90s in suburban Boston to see if it is offering honors for all. It is not. Here are the three levels offered - which means that honors really IS honors. So frustrated with MCPS.

Newton, MA offerings:

College Preparatory (CP)
Students working at the college preparatory level are progressing towards greater independence as they tackle content through inquiry, problem solving, critical thinking and reading and writing. In some courses, co-teaching might allow for more individualized attention as students develop these skills.

Advanced College Preparatory (ACP)
Students working at the Advanced College Preparatory level generally approach content with a solid degree of independence through inquiry, problem solving and critical thinking skills. The SAM option in ACP courses enables students who are still developing the skills necessary to succeed in an ACP class the opportunity to take an ACP class. The goal of this program is to allow students to Stretch intellectually, Aim for excellence and Make progress (SAM).

Honors (H)
At the Honors level, students not only approach course content independently, but use their inquiry, problem solving, and critical thinking skills to explore associated topics and themes beyond the scope of the Advanced
College Preparatory curriculum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whats the difference between honors and grade level?

Pace? Difficulty? Work load?

Officially, according to the MCPS course bulletin:

Honors courses provide expectations and opportunities for students to engage in more rigorous and complex content and processes and to develop authentic products that reflect the student’s understanding of key concepts. The curriculum in each Honors course includes appropriate adaptations for enriched learning to pursue in-depth studies that require abstract and higher-order thinking skills.

The issue is that the grade-level courses are often not even offered in the schools, even though they are still listed in the bulletin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Whats the difference between honors and grade level?

Pace? Difficulty? Work load?

Officially, according to the MCPS course bulletin:

Honors courses provide expectations and opportunities for students to engage in more rigorous and complex content and processes and to develop authentic products that reflect the student’s understanding of key concepts. The curriculum in each Honors course includes appropriate adaptations for enriched learning to pursue in-depth studies that require abstract and higher-order thinking skills.

The issue is that the grade-level courses are often not even offered in the schools, even though they are still listed in the bulletin.

I agree and my daughter would do better and learn in grade level Math. She’s in honors and it’s not the privilege mcps thinks it is if she and other kids are not learning and absorbing the information. Honors for all is not good for advanced learners or for grade level learners.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Whats the difference between honors and grade level?

Pace? Difficulty? Work load?

There are hardly any grade level classes left

[Anonymous]

Lake Mocobegon, where all the children are above average

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no way every kid is bright enough to take honors anything. Not helping those kids work towards a future job,

Its not honors. It is grade level but parents are happier if it is called honors and kids GPAs are helped by the extra point...but really MCPS is out of 5 not 4 and hte collleges can see that.,

Yep. Same idea as why everyone is in Advanced English in Middle School. The class is a joke and there is no differentiation. The soft bigotry of low expectations is depressing and serves no one.

Advanced English was never supposed to be Honors English for MS or just for gifted kids. It was supposed to be extra lessons to teach analysis skills that the old curriculum didn’t include. Hypothetically, you could have a heterogenous classroom where some students did the extra lessons and others didn’t but there might be gifted kids in either group. Two things happened: Parents misunderstood the advanced label and thought it mean the kids must be gifted so they all wanted in. Curriculum specialists realized that all kids needed these analysis skills in order to read and write critically so they wanted all students to access the lessons.

At our MCPS middle school, there simply is no other option than advanced English. Parents can’t request anything. All kids are placed in the same (terrible) class.

That is a total joke to think that all kids can succesfully complete that class. What about the ones who can't read at that level?

There are levels within the levels. They just aren’t labeled, but you can tell which level by who the kids in the class are.

Not so sure this is true. I think it's more that some would like to imagine it. I remember a neighbor parent telling me their child was in the highest 1st grade math class which was different than what my kids was in who was scoring 20-30 points over the 99%. The reality was there were several enriched classes that were the same.

Mom of poor student here... Yes, in my kids "honors" English it was all the remedial kids in the same class.

At our MS the only English is "Advanced" so it's basically remedial. My kid's teacher is great but the course is just to basic. Their 4th grade CES was 2X more challenging.

Why didn’t your child go to the Communications magnet?

DP

What Communications Magnet? There is no such thing.

Probably referring to Eastern and MLK. There are very few spots at Eastern and MLK. There is a huge need in the county for honors English at every MS. After the Metis report, not only did MCPS not expand the number of MS magnet seats, they also did not provide an honors English curriculum. They did add honors social studies, but that is not English class.

They added "enriched" social studies classes, but there are no "Honors" middle school classes. Only (some) HS classes taught in middle school carry Honors credit.

This. And the clarification has been made countless times by MCPS and restated here on this website in hundreds of threads, but DCUM refuses to believe it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There is no way every kid is bright enough to take honors anything. Not helping those kids work towards a future job,

Its not honors. It is grade level but parents are happier if it is called honors and kids GPAs are helped by the extra point...but really MCPS is out of 5 not 4 and hte collleges can see that.,

Yep. Same idea as why everyone is in Advanced English in Middle School. The class is a joke and there is no differentiation. The soft bigotry of low expectations is depressing and serves no one.

Advanced English was never supposed to be Honors English for MS or just for gifted kids. It was supposed to be extra lessons to teach analysis skills that the old curriculum didn’t include. Hypothetically, you could have a heterogenous classroom where some students did the extra lessons and others didn’t but there might be gifted kids in either group. Two things happened: Parents misunderstood the advanced label and thought it mean the kids must be gifted so they all wanted in. Curriculum specialists realized that all kids needed these analysis skills in order to read and write critically so they wanted all students to access the lessons.

At our MCPS middle school, there simply is no other option than advanced English. Parents can’t request anything. All kids are placed in the same (terrible) class.

That is a total joke to think that all kids can succesfully complete that class. What about the ones who can't read at that level?

There are levels within the levels. They just aren’t labeled, but you can tell which level by who the kids in the class are.

Not so sure this is true. I think it's more that some would like to imagine it. I remember a neighbor parent telling me their child was in the highest 1st grade math class which was different than what my kids was in who was scoring 20-30 points over the 99%. The reality was there were several enriched classes that were the same.

Mom of poor student here... Yes, in my kids "honors" English it was all the remedial kids in the same class.

At our MS the only English is "Advanced" so it's basically remedial. My kid's teacher is great but the course is just to basic. Their 4th grade CES was 2X more challenging.

Why didn’t your child go to the Communications magnet?

DP

What Communications Magnet? There is no such thing.

Probably referring to Eastern and MLK. There are very few spots at Eastern and MLK. There is a huge need in the county for honors English at every MS. After the Metis report, not only did MCPS not expand the number of MS magnet seats, they also did not provide an honors English curriculum. They did add honors social studies, but that is not English class.

The official title is “Humanities and Communication Magnet”.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCPS could care less about high performing students. I have had kids in this school system for a LONG time. My own thought is that everything started to go downhill for the neurotypical smart kid when NCLB was passed. NCLB also coincided with a massive influx of poor ESL students and a massive increase in special needs students (at all levels) due to an increase in Autism awareness and testing.

Same here. Parents of high-achieving kids need to figure things out for themselves. MCPS does not want to support them. Not only that, MCPS has stated its main goal as closing the Achievement Gap. It would be in conflict with that goal, if MCPS tried to help the already higher-performing kids to do better.

It’s crazy that the public school system doesn’t do more to nurture, encourage and engage our high performing kids.

The thing is, the gap won't ever close. It exists because some care while others don't. People have different priorities.