The death of Allie Hart and the need for safer streets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the police did not find fault with the driver's actions and no charges were brought, I think it's very weird that some people are in here insisting the the police report is wrong and they know better.

Accidents happen. Even tragic ones. That doesn't make the driver at fault. Wrong time, wrong place for both people.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the dad who wasn't right beside her making sure she stopped at the curb and didn't dart out into the street. I personally wouldn't but I think he is more at fault than the driver who was not charged by police.

If I have a choice between blaming the father of a dead five year old and the driver of a deadly vehicle who killed a child in the crosswalk I am going to blame the diver every time. Driving is a responsibility and I am sick of people treating it like some god-given right. If you can't operate a vehicle in a manner that allows you to NOT KILL a child in a crosswalk then you should not be driving and I think you should be arrested and thrown in jail if you kill someone. Clearly the system does not agree with me on the latter point but I am so sick of that reality. Blaming the parents does nothing because it isn't their fault- they did not choose to drive a car into a child. The driver did.

Also, if she has the right of way she isn't "darting" into the street. She legally entered a crosswalk. Darting implies she did it with no warning or in a place she should not have been. The warning to the driver is the fact that there is a crosswalk there. Pedestrians are already relegated to only being "allowed" to cross in a crosswalk and it is unconscionable that even when they DO stay in the crosswalk then can be murdered with zero repercussions to the perpetrator.

Yeah it doesn't. LOL. I mean, come on. This is WHY we have traffic rules and laws. The father wasn't abiding by the law. He let his kid scoot out into traffic. This is the result.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean we can throw an innocent driver in jail. Come on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the police did not find fault with the driver's actions and no charges were brought, I think it's very weird that some people are in here insisting the the police report is wrong and they know better.

Accidents happen. Even tragic ones. That doesn't make the driver at fault. Wrong time, wrong place for both people.

If you really want to blame someone, blame the dad who wasn't right beside her making sure she stopped at the curb and didn't dart out into the street. I personally wouldn't but I think he is more at fault than the driver who was not charged by police.

If I have a choice between blaming the father of a dead five year old and the driver of a deadly vehicle who killed a child in the crosswalk I am going to blame the diver every time. Driving is a responsibility and I am sick of people treating it like some god-given right. If you can't operate a vehicle in a manner that allows you to NOT KILL a child in a crosswalk then you should not be driving and I think you should be arrested and thrown in jail if you kill someone. Clearly the system does not agree with me on the latter point but I am so sick of that reality. Blaming the parents does nothing because it isn't their fault- they did not choose to drive a car into a child. The driver did.

Also, if she has the right of way she isn't "darting" into the street. She legally entered a crosswalk. Darting implies she did it with no warning or in a place she should not have been. The warning to the driver is the fact that there is a crosswalk there. Pedestrians are already relegated to only being "allowed" to cross in a crosswalk and it is unconscionable that even when they DO stay in the crosswalk then can be murdered with zero repercussions to the perpetrator.

She didn't have the right of way. That's the whole point. That's why the driver wasn't charged with a crime. Why are you being so dense about this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

apparently the police didn't find evidence that he did not do this though. The kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't blame a child so who is really at fault here? The parent.

This is why you need to hold your kid's hand on busy streets!!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

Lots of streets are busy. Fifth Avenue in New York last weekend was busy. You don't mean "a busy street", you mean "a street with lots of cars going fast". Why is it appropriate to have streets with lots of cars going fast, in a city?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

apparently the police didn't find evidence that he did not do this though. The kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't blame a child so who is really at fault here? The parent.

This is why you need to hold your kid's hand on busy streets!!!!

This faith in the police investigation is really ... something.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

Lots of streets are busy. Fifth Avenue in New York last weekend was busy. You don't mean "a busy street", you mean "a street with lots of cars going fast". Why is it appropriate to have streets with lots of cars going fast, in a city?

Not really, I mean lots of cars on the road. A driver going under 20 is still going to kill a small child if they hit them head on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

apparently the police didn't find evidence that he did not do this though. The kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't blame a child so who is really at fault here? The parent.

This is why you need to hold your kid's hand on busy streets!!!!

This faith in the police investigation is really ... something.

Why do you not hold the father at fault at all? Why wasn't he making her stay right next to him? Why didn't they have a strict rule in place that she was not to go into the street at all without him?? And if they can't trust her to follow the rule at all times, then he needs to hold her hand.

I'm a parent of young kids. I know what they're like. This is exactly why you hold their hands and don't give them the freedom to bike up and down busy streets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

apparently the police didn't find evidence that he did not do this though. The kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't blame a child so who is really at fault here? The parent.

This is why you need to hold your kid's hand on busy streets!!!!

This faith in the police investigation is really ... something.

I haven't posted here yet, but I recently contributed to an investigation of an accident that occured outside of my business (biker hit by car). I have followed the case, and the police were very, very thorough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

You can continue to live in your fantasy world where children don’t dart and streets are so safe that accidents never happen. I will live in the real world and take the proper precautions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

Lots of streets are busy. Fifth Avenue in New York last weekend was busy. You don't mean "a busy street", you mean "a street with lots of cars going fast". Why is it appropriate to have streets with lots of cars going fast, in a city?

Not really, I mean lots of cars on the road. A driver going under 20 is still going to kill a small child if they hit them head on.

This is exactly why pedestrians and bikers need to be careful and not oblivious like the PP wants to be.

Even when it really truly is an accident and no one can hold the driver at fault, the result is still going to be serious injury or death for the pedestrian just because of the weight and velocity of the car.

Now the PP will probably say we need to live in a world without cars. Since *that's* not going to happen, how about the parents of young children hold their hands on busy streets and intersections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People are really bad at judging whether a car came to a full stop behind the white line. A stop sign camera went in near our neighborhood and the email list was flooded with idiots posting their videos saying "see? I STOPPED", but when you watch the video they either slowed some but didn't stop or stopped after the line. That kind of "stopping" can make the difference between life and death like for this little girl.

No, I don't trust MPD or eye witnesses. It's possible that the van driver stopped but I don't think it's likely. Otherwise they would have been able to see a girl biking towards them and not started driving forward.

He might have seen her but assumed she would stop at the curb. Pedestrians only have the right of way if they're waiting at the curb or are in the intersection.

I think it's strange that people are so determined to hold the driver at fault. I'm sure this has wrecked him. But the police would have charged him if there was evidence he did anything wrong.

The driver is at fault because drivers have a legal obligation to exercise due care to avoid hitting people, with extra precaution for children. That's the law.

Now, do I blame the driver? I guess so. But I blame DDOT more. And all the people who think their right to drive is more important than other people's right to live.

apparently the police didn't find evidence that he did not do this though. The kid was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You can't blame a child so who is really at fault here? The parent.

This is why you need to hold your kid's hand on busy streets!!!!

This faith in the police investigation is really ... something.

Why do you not hold the father at fault at all? Why wasn't he making her stay right next to him? Why didn't they have a strict rule in place that she was not to go into the street at all without him?? And if they can't trust her to follow the rule at all times, then he needs to hold her hand.

I'm a parent of young kids. I know what they're like. This is exactly why you hold their hands and don't give them the freedom to bike up and down busy streets.

Shorter PP: This won't happen to me because I [reason].

That's not how it works, though. People who are doing everything right are hit on the roads all the time, and even killed. Not to mention that people make mistakes all the time, and there shouldn't be a death sentence for making mistakes. Road safety isn't an individual responsibility. It's our government's responsibility to provide a transportation system that's safe for everyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids do dart out into the street though. When I walk with my young kids, I hold their hand. I don't let them bike or scooter because of this very scenario.

I feel very bad for her parents but I believe it was a tragic accident and that the driver didn't do anything wrong. You need to hold your young child's hand at all times on busy roads and intersections.

People don't "dart".

Also, as you say, kids are kids. They predictably behave in unpredictable ways. Why should we have to hold our young children's hands at all times, lest they be killed? Why shouldn't it be safe for kids to bike or scooter in their own neighborhoods? Why is it acceptable for streets to be unsafe - deadly - for children?

...because we don't want them to be killed on a busy street?? Are you for real?

You need to move to a cul de sac in a suburb with the way you want to go around oblivious in the world and not come to harm.

Lots of streets are busy. Fifth Avenue in New York last weekend was busy. You don't mean "a busy street", you mean "a street with lots of cars going fast". Why is it appropriate to have streets with lots of cars going fast, in a city?

Not really, I mean lots of cars on the road. A driver going under 20 is still going to kill a small child if they hit them head on.

This is exactly why pedestrians and bikers need to be careful and not oblivious like the PP wants to be.

Even when it really truly is an accident and no one can hold the driver at fault, the result is still going to be serious injury or death for the pedestrian just because of the weight and velocity of the car.

Now the PP will probably say we need to live in a world without cars. Since *that's* not going to happen, how about the parents of young children hold their hands on busy streets and intersections.

This is why drivers need to be careful not to hit and kill people. If you're not willing to accept that responsibility, you should not be allowed to drive.