Bookish Quirks & Icks

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is super specific, but when an ebook file doesn’t have page numbers. Kindle will show “location 4524” as if that helps?

Yes! Or just show you where you are in the chapter, and requiring extra work to figure out where you are in the book page-wise (percents are usually pretty easy to see).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Literary fiction that needs a lesbian and an evil priest to get published.

I actually have a wonderful gay daughter. But c'mon, these tropes are so common, can't we start doing something else?

Bonus points for an evil gay priest. People of the Book, I’m looking at you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is more of a sadness and frustration than a quirk or an ick but books in a series that just Stop. I used to see this a lot with mysteries. The first one or two would be published in inexpensive paperbacks, then a hardcover book would come out, the book might not get the sales that were hoped for, then the series just Stops. I realize that there are other reasons to end a series — including lots of personal factors for the authors. It’s hard, though, to get invested in a series — and then….nothing.

Similarly though, it’s hard to get invested in a series and have the quality of the writing and the editing precipitously decline — with the push to publish annually. I’d rather wait another year or two for something good than read books that are obviously put together hastily. Yeah, this might sell one or two more books, but it also loses many longtime readers and likely gains few new ones.

These all ended way too soon for me:

The Ivy League series by Pamela Thomas Graham.
The horoscope themed series by Martha Lawrence
The NYC based series by Marissa Piesman
The Booklovers series by Julie Kaewert
The truly wonderful Alex Powell books by Karen Grigsby Bates

There's a series I love that has three books out and Berkley isn't resigning (I'm guessing the initial deal was for three books). The author is going to self-publish a fourth book to wrap up the loose ends.

What's frustrating is that no one was writing with the setting she was using (Singapore in the late 1800s). Though some characters are British, there were also characters from Malaysia, China, India, etc. It was really interesting. It was also an honest look at how the British operated there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

[Anonymous]

I hate it when my favorite authors die

Jim Harrison
Phillip Roth
Helen Dunmore
Beryl Bainbridge
all the others...

ugh. That's probably my biggest book ick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Whites are 60% of the US population, so....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

NP here.

I think it’s less about including those characters (if it’s done well, of course) and more about writing the stories and experiences of POc when they aren’t ours to tell.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

NP here.

I think it’s less about including those characters (if it’s done well, of course) and more about writing the stories and experiences of POc when they aren’t ours to tell.

And to give an example of a white author who did a good job with this: Hank Green, An Absolutely Remarkable Thing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Whites are 60% of the US population, so....

I don’t limit my reading to US authors. Sorry! I didn’t realize that’s what you must have meant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

NP here.

I think it’s less about including those characters (if it’s done well, of course) and more about writing the stories and experiences of POc when they aren’t ours to tell.

Excellent point — and a good distinction to make.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

NP here.

I think it’s less about including those characters (if it’s done well, of course) and more about writing the stories and experiences of POc when they aren’t ours to tell.

And to give an example of a white author who did a good job with this: Hank Green, An Absolutely Remarkable Thing

I’m not familiar with this book or the author. I’ll have to check it out. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Anonymous]

How about phrases you read in books but rarely say or hear in real life? Two that I seem to read often:

A character "padding" somewhere: "She padded down the hall to the bathroom."

Describing a character's hair as "scraped" back: "Her hair was scraped back into a ponytail."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Authors that describe a character as “Black” or as a POC — when they don’t directly mention the race of any of the other characters. It’s like they assume that everyone assumes that the default for a human being is white. White characters are described by detailed characteristics. POC characters are often described primarily or even only by their race or color. (An elderly man, with the severe dignity of a priest, paused near the doorway, watching as a black woman walked down the steps.) — This is the sort of thing I mean. Once I started noticing this, I can’t not see it.

Related is the propensity for white writers to describe POC as food. Skin tones are: chocolate, caramel, honey, almond, coffee….. Which stands out to me because non-POC characters are rarely described that way …. Pale, sallow, rosy ….are more typical.

Then there are the stereotypes, but that’s a much more complex issue. I’ll simply say that I’ve given up on one otherwise favorite author’s ability to move beyond comfortable tropes with the one Black repeating character. She did try — but her inadequacies with this character are particularly evident when neither the author’s descriptions of the character nor her sexless ability to continually comfort the more complexly written and varied white characters ever changes — over the course of almost 20 books.

Vent, vent, vent. Rant, rant, rant. Exhale.

I totally get you, and the food thing is especially awful.

But here's a sincere question. White people avoid writing from a POC's POV because they almost always do it horribly (you're right about stereotypes) and it's cultural appropriation. But whites represent the majority of writers, if nothing else because they're the majority in the broader population. So, just by the numbers, the default kind of is to have a white POV. And, if the priest watches an elderly woman full stop, many will assume she's white, again just by the population numbers.

Do you have any ideas for identifying race respectfully? Identifying the race of every single character when they're introduced seems really clunky. There may be no easy answer and that's fine.

I’m not clear that “whites represent the majority of writers” or “the majority in the broader population “. I am clear that they represent the majority of mainstream publishers though. Rather than rant about your assumptions, I’ll skip to your question.

The simplest answer is that good writers often SHOW rather than TELL. If there are reasons for race to be explicitly identified, it can be done in the same, subtle or detailed ways that any other important characteristics are — including the character’s own musings and comments.
So if a writer starts with assuming that there are NO defaults, and that they have to introduce all of their characters to all of their readers, then it should work out fine.

You don’t actually have to identify the race of every single character “when they’re introduced”. Timmy and Karin can chat and interact for several pages or even several chapters before one mentions her stern Nordic grandfather and another mentions the family latke recipe while they make lefse together. A writer might leave it out altogether. Or a writer could notice that mentioning only some people as having a race — is Othering these characters, alienating at least some readers, and work to be better if that was not their intent.

I get that it can be clumsy to write effectively and sensitivity about people who are very different from you as a writer. That’s what research is for. And what having readers to critique your manuscripts before you publish them are for. If a writer has NO readers who resemble their characters in essential ways, then I would respectfully ask them to ask themselves why they’re including the character — and what they can do as a WRITER to make these characters as authentic and as complex as the rest of their characters— however authentic and complex that might actually be.

Be very careful about including characters who don't resemble you. You don't want to be the next American Dirt. I'm sure that author (who had a Puerto Rican grandmother) had many friends read it, and Latino critics and Oprah were initially really welcoming, until the fierce backlash about her writing about Mexicans.

That was horrible what they did to that author.
That was a great read! One of my favorites of the year. I was really taken aback by the reaction, and pissed on the authors behalf. They screwed her. On the plus side, she was on the bestsellers list for weeks & weeks; on the negative side, her reputation is ruined.