which Big3 schools actually dropped APs this year as planned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yawn.

They didn't stop offering classes that are rigorous enough to prepare you for the AP tests, they just removed the "AP" from the class description.

It's a shift in semiotics because the "AP" lost cred because it's so common now.

This is complete fallacy. They don't teach to the AP curriculum and kids will have to devote significant time to outside classes or independent study if they wish to score 4 or 5s. No easy way around it. The schools have screwed students up big time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

This is the advice I'd give anyone who asked me about taking APs at our Big 3 (probably the same one). The school is not as clear on this as they should be.

But FYI - according to my rising senior, it wasn't a small subset who took the AP Lit and APUSH tests last Spring - the numbers were too high - it was probably 50-75% (probably more for Lit than USH).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

I agree with a lot of this. These schools are doing their students a disfavor, not because the courses are less rigorous, but because they are not being honest and complete when they tell students there is little value in taking AP tests. There is a lot of value to any student who wants to place out of intro courses when they get to college (assuming they score high enough) so they can focus on either higher level courses or take more courses in different areas. That is a huge advantage. And that's aside from the issue of applying to overseas schools, where it is necessary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

I agree with a lot of this. These schools are doing their students a disfavor, not because the courses are less rigorous, but because they are not being honest and complete when they tell students there is little value in taking AP tests. There is a lot of value to any student who wants to place out of intro courses when they get to college (assuming they score high enough) so they can focus on either higher level courses or take more courses in different areas. That is a huge advantage. And that's aside from the issue of applying to overseas schools, where it is necessary.

My son was encouraged to take the test in a class he didn’t take (APUSH) and got a 5 on the exam. There was some extra studying but not a heavy lift. While I don’t expect the benefit to be knowable or quantifiable, I would imagine there would be some positive to reporting the 5 (plus AP honors in conjunction with other tests). If there was truly nothing, then the schools wouldn’t have students sit for an exam where only 10% of kids, most of whom took the AP class, get that score.

[Anonymous]

The primary issue of the recent posts is the communication from the school to students/parents regarding the exams. But our school is horrible at communication for everything and treats parents as overbearing...so not sure this is can be chalked up to an AP-specific or college counseling centered issue. Part of me wants to believe they think they are taking stress off kids (as they assume parents are piling on the stress) but they really are not communicating the full range of information about what taking the AP exams can mean. It is definitely true that taking the APs from these non-AP classes is NOT a heavy lift to get a 5 for students at our school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The primary issue of the recent posts is the communication from the school to students/parents regarding the exams. But our school is horrible at communication for everything and treats parents as overbearing...so not sure this is can be chalked up to an AP-specific or college counseling centered issue. Part of me wants to believe they think they are taking stress off kids (as they assume parents are piling on the stress) but they really are not communicating the full range of information about what taking the AP exams can mean. It is definitely true that taking the APs from these non-AP classes is NOT a heavy lift to get a 5 for students at our school.

I think we must have kids at different schools or else we have different perspectives. It is true I had no communication with anyone about AP tests bc my son’s teachers communicated with him on the tests - both for AP classes and non- AP classes where he took the exam (and he took care of all the registering etc). I have no idea how helpful scoring well on these tests will be - don’t think I will ever know. But it does demonstrate mastery of the material, particularly in a situation where he didn’t get an A in the class, IMO. Since grades seem to be deflated, I would think high test scores of any sort would be a plus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The primary issue of the recent posts is the communication from the school to students/parents regarding the exams. But our school is horrible at communication for everything and treats parents as overbearing...so not sure this is can be chalked up to an AP-specific or college counseling centered issue. Part of me wants to believe they think they are taking stress off kids (as they assume parents are piling on the stress) but they really are not communicating the full range of information about what taking the AP exams can mean. It is definitely true that taking the APs from these non-AP classes is NOT a heavy lift to get a 5 for students at our school.

I think we must have kids at different schools or else we have different perspectives. It is true I had no communication with anyone about AP tests bc my son’s teachers communicated with him on the tests - both for AP classes and non- AP classes where he took the exam (and he took care of all the registering etc). I have no idea how helpful scoring well on these tests will be - don’t think I will ever know. But it does demonstrate mastery of the material, particularly in a situation where he didn’t get an A in the class, IMO. Since grades seem to be deflated, I would think high test scores of any sort would be a plus.

We could still be at the same school - I could see some teachers communicating better than others on this, and certainly if a student asks about it. My kids have never shared much about what the teachers say (and they do well, so no biggie). I only know the US admin and college counseling messaging to parents - and that is very squishy on taking AP exams.

[Anonymous]

I am not sure what you mean by “squishy.” The admin was pretty clear - take AP tests for your AP classes. Individual teachers recommended boys for additional exams.

As I said, I don’t know if it will ever be clear how helpful the AP exams are, and as other posters have said, probably depends on the kid’s specific goals and profile. I am not attributing the uncertainty to the college office being obtuse, rather the opaque nature of the college admissions process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure what you mean by “squishy.” The admin was pretty clear - take AP tests for your AP classes. Individual teachers recommended boys for additional exams.

As I said, I don’t know if it will ever be clear how helpful the AP exams are, and as other posters have said, probably depends on the kid’s specific goals and profile. I am not attributing the uncertainty to the college office being obtuse, rather the opaque nature of the college admissions process.

Based on your reply above, it doesn't sound like the same school as ours after all. Our school does not give concrete advice on AP. They throw out "some" information, but generally like to downplay APs even if you ask explicitly. This is done to the extent that students/parents who are not doing research on their own sometimes find that they did not get relevant guidance needed to make informed decisions - and then it's too late (year has passed or it's too late to sign up for AP because it had to be done in October).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yawn.

They didn't stop offering classes that are rigorous enough to prepare you for the AP tests, they just removed the "AP" from the class description.

It's a shift in semiotics because the "AP" lost cred because it's so common now.

This is complete fallacy. They don't teach to the AP curriculum and kids will have to devote significant time to outside classes or independent study if they wish to score 4 or 5s. No easy way around it. The schools have screwed students up big time.

Why would anyone take an AP exam if their school dropped it? Does not make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

This is the advice I'd give anyone who asked me about taking APs at our Big 3 (probably the same one). The school is not as clear on this as they should be.

But FYI - according to my rising senior, it wasn't a small subset who took the AP Lit and APUSH tests last Spring - the numbers were too high - it was probably 50-75% (probably more for Lit than USH).

Agree. Also, students, there is no guarantee that you will get into a school that doesn't give credit (e.g. Ivy). If this happens, and you don't end up where you expected, and choose a school a that does give credit, as upset as you may be about not getting into the hoped for school, add to it that you will be taking intro courses for a year or two that others have placed out of. Particularly, if it is a big school, most of the top 25th percentile kids will be a year ahead of you in coursework, (e.g., some kids completely place out of the core requirements and jump right into the major, putting them at an advantage for internships). A lot of kids don't mind this, but it is something to consider.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yawn.

They didn't stop offering classes that are rigorous enough to prepare you for the AP tests, they just removed the "AP" from the class description.

It's a shift in semiotics because the "AP" lost cred because it's so common now.

This is complete fallacy. They don't teach to the AP curriculum and kids will have to devote significant time to outside classes or independent study if they wish to score 4 or 5s. No easy way around it. The schools have screwed students up big time.

Why would anyone take an AP exam if their school dropped it? Does not make sense.

Because a $45 exam is cheaper than a 3-credit, college introductory core survey course that you don't actually want to waste your time taking from a TA grad student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure what you mean by “squishy.” The admin was pretty clear - take AP tests for your AP classes. Individual teachers recommended boys for additional exams.

As I said, I don’t know if it will ever be clear how helpful the AP exams are, and as other posters have said, probably depends on the kid’s specific goals and profile. I am not attributing the uncertainty to the college office being obtuse, rather the opaque nature of the college admissions process.

Based on your reply above, it doesn't sound like the same school as ours after all. Our school does not give concrete advice on AP. They throw out "some" information, but generally like to downplay APs even if you ask explicitly. This is done to the extent that students/parents who are not doing research on their own sometimes find that they did not get relevant guidance needed to make informed decisions - and then it's too late (year has passed or it's too late to sign up for AP because it had to be done in October).

Sounds different. For my kid, all the signing up is done at school. Maybe he signed up in October but I thought he was asked to sit for non-AP class exams later (and they were administered at school during AP exam week).

In any event, the other posters make a good case that there are very few situations where AP tests are a must. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am not sure what you mean by “squishy.” The admin was pretty clear - take AP tests for your AP classes. Individual teachers recommended boys for additional exams.

As I said, I don’t know if it will ever be clear how helpful the AP exams are, and as other posters have said, probably depends on the kid’s specific goals and profile. I am not attributing the uncertainty to the college office being obtuse, rather the opaque nature of the college admissions process.

It's not clear how much AP exam scores matter admissions for US colleges, but it's quite clear that a 5 or 4 on some AP exams would allow a student to place out of an intro course at many, many US colleges including highly ranked ones. It's beyond me why the non-AP privates try to obscure this fact. Maybe to justify their decision to drop the courses. My DC has taken one exam so far and is planning to take two next year, without taking any AP-labeled classes (because there aren't any). It seems like it would be strange not to try to place out of certain intro college courses if you can and want to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yawn.

They didn't stop offering classes that are rigorous enough to prepare you for the AP tests, they just removed the "AP" from the class description.

It's a shift in semiotics because the "AP" lost cred because it's so common now.

This is complete fallacy. They don't teach to the AP curriculum and kids will have to devote significant time to outside classes or independent study if they wish to score 4 or 5s. No easy way around it. The schools have screwed students up big time.

This just isn’t true. Maybe a weekend with a cottage industry book but that’s about all that is required, at least for decent students