which Big3 schools actually dropped APs this year as planned?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:sorry to be dense but can someone remind me why they decided to do this in the first place? Wasn't it somewhat controversial?

The claims were : students may pass up other courses to get the college credits from AP courses, and that moving away from the courses would allow them to offer a wider variety of courses that were equally rigorous and enriching.

However, I’ve yet to hear what rigorous courses are replacing the APs at all these schools. More I suspect that said course will offer depth in a teachers personal area of curiosity and expertise and less the students interest. Especially when you consider these are small schools so it’s not like the teachers are about to create a huge variety of new classes from scratch and then be the only ones that can teach them every year.

A class doesn't need to follow the strict AP to be as rigorous (or more) than an AP course. Our child got 5's on AP Lit and APUSH from their Big 3 regular 11th grade English and US History courses...and our school has NO differentiated levels for those courses (there's no honors, etc. - everyone takes the same class). There was no tutor involved and not a lot of extra work. Teachers gave a small amount of feedback in the Spring on what the exam will look like and whether there was anything the teacher hadn't covered yet. It was not a heavy lift for our student - they had been taught at the high level AP required but with a curriculum and depth the teacher/school chose for the course. There are so many skeptics on the decreasing quality. The Blair Magnet science courses aren't all labeled AP - and those kids also get 5's on the AP subject exams. In both cases, these are smart kids with great teachers....there's no need to follow the rote AP formula. They get a better course AND get the "5" test score.

Wishful thinking. Some random course that reflects the teacher’s interest and the school’s priorities isn’t going to translate into a 5 on an AP test for most kids.

Not wishful thinking, it's facts. My child is not an outlier at this school....the kids do very very well on APs without an AP label on the course.

Oh yeah? It’s “facts” that every kid gets a 5 on every AP? And how do you know that? Do you work for the College Board?

i don't but it sure seems you do. i haven't seen someone blindly defend something like you defend the AP curriculum since Rudy Giuliani.

Wow, not the pp just an observer, but you certainly showed your true colors immediately attacking the pp by turning this into an ugly political battle. I would certainly not trust anything you say now. Get a grip please.

I’m not sure how I will ever recover from your rejection.

[Anonymous]

It's a rule in all debates on AP courses that no one ever talks about what is actually taught in AP courses vs. their existing substitutes. The two camps just choose up sides for and against and punch away from there.

I tried to interject earlier what I know about AP History and Geography courses to no avail. I know why I prefer, as a teacher, not to teach to the AP test. But no one else here has shown any indication that they know what is taught in an AP classroom or included on an AP exam other than what they have heard second- or thirdhand.

A real debate what include what is taught in AP-substitute courses and whether it seems more worthwhile or not. I keep hoping that someone informed will join the debate for that purpose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:sorry to be dense but can someone remind me why they decided to do this in the first place? Wasn't it somewhat controversial?

The claims were : students may pass up other courses to get the college credits from AP courses, and that moving away from the courses would allow them to offer a wider variety of courses that were equally rigorous and enriching.

However, I’ve yet to hear what rigorous courses are replacing the APs at all these schools. More I suspect that said course will offer depth in a teachers personal area of curiosity and expertise and less the students interest. Especially when you consider these are small schools so it’s not like the teachers are about to create a huge variety of new classes from scratch and then be the only ones that can teach them every year.

A class doesn't need to follow the strict AP to be as rigorous (or more) than an AP course. Our child got 5's on AP Lit and APUSH from their Big 3 regular 11th grade English and US History courses...and our school has NO differentiated levels for those courses (there's no honors, etc. - everyone takes the same class). There was no tutor involved and not a lot of extra work. Teachers gave a small amount of feedback in the Spring on what the exam will look like and whether there was anything the teacher hadn't covered yet. It was not a heavy lift for our student - they had been taught at the high level AP required but with a curriculum and depth the teacher/school chose for the course. There are so many skeptics on the decreasing quality. The Blair Magnet science courses aren't all labeled AP - and those kids also get 5's on the AP subject exams. In both cases, these are smart kids with great teachers....there's no need to follow the rote AP formula. They get a better course AND get the "5" test score.

Wishful thinking. Some random course that reflects the teacher’s interest and the school’s priorities isn’t going to translate into a 5 on an AP test for most kids.

Not wishful thinking, it's facts. My child is not an outlier at this school....the kids do very very well on APs without an AP label on the course.

Oh yeah? It’s “facts” that every kid gets a 5 on every AP? And how do you know that? Do you work for the College Board?

i don't but it sure seems you do. i haven't seen someone blindly defend something like you defend the AP curriculum since Rudy Giuliani.

Wow, not the pp just an observer, but you certainly showed your true colors immediately attacking the pp by turning this into an ugly political battle. I would certainly not trust anything you say now. Get a grip please.

I’m not sure how I will ever recover from your rejection.

Sorry you feel rejected. Your word, not mine.

[Anonymous]

The real issue seems to be that STA joined a coalition of schools and agreed to drop all APs, but they did not. In addition they are now not letting NCS students into their AP classes. Is it because NCS is in the coalition of non-AP schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a rule in all debates on AP courses that no one ever talks about what is actually taught in AP courses vs. their existing substitutes. The two camps just choose up sides for and against and punch away from there.

I tried to interject earlier what I know about AP History and Geography courses to no avail. I know why I prefer, as a teacher, not to teach to the AP test. But no one else here has shown any indication that they know what is taught in an AP classroom or included on an AP exam other than what they have heard second- or thirdhand.

A real debate what include what is taught in AP-substitute courses and whether it seems more worthwhile or not. I keep hoping that someone informed will join the debate for that purpose.

There is no one who is informed on this topic. It’s all speculation

[Anonymous]

Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The real issue seems to be that STA joined a coalition of schools and agreed to drop all APs, but they did not. In addition they are now not letting NCS students into their AP classes. Is it because NCS is in the coalition of non-AP schools?

Do you know this first hand? Are they really not letting NCS girls in? If so, this is a MAJOR change in the programming for both schools and seems odd because I thought a goal of both headmasters (at least STA's) was to encourage more coordinate classes and coed interaction.

I have kids in both schools but they're a few years away from APs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

Why are you still at your school then? This was announced 4 years ago

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

A quick Google shows "About 58% of public colleges give credit for a score of 3; meanwhile, only 33% of private colleges accept this score.Sep 27, 2021"

So the value of AP courses for students mostly going on to US private universities starts to look pretty marginal. Those with their heart set on a school that requires or rewards AP scores can get the study guides and a tutor and do just as well as someone sitting through a full course on it.

Private schools that don't want their curricula tied to the AP formulas (yes they are very formulaic) take all that into account and choose to deliver value with different kinds of courses. Calling the AP courses the be all and end all of superior learning is just an AP Board marketing victory. There are many other ways to teach these subjects just as well or better.

[Anonymous]

Yawn.

They didn't stop offering classes that are rigorous enough to prepare you for the AP tests, they just removed the "AP" from the class description.

It's a shift in semiotics because the "AP" lost cred because it's so common now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Several things bother me about this as a parent of a high schooler at one of these schools that dropped AP classes

First, the DOJ sued and settled with these DMV schools alleging collusion. They colluded and did not ask parent input. Big party foul. Look up the DOJ news release

Second, my school still offers the tests but not the classes. The school college office is very oblique when asked why. Here’s what I figured out since we are now deep in college process. Many colleges in US still take AP test scores to place kids out of required core classes. Otherwise the kid has to repeat language or chemistry or math at many of these schools. That’s actually an economic and choice architecture loss. The Ivies mostly stopped allowing AP tests to place out but basically every other college does grant credit. And credit is time and money.

Finally, the UK and EU universities - many of whom are gaining in popularity I notice, require 3 to 5 AP classes.

There’s never been a single email from our school warning parents of these last two facts. Not one.

And the UC system specifically calculates weighted GPA using AP. They do not accept UL tagged classes as high level. So these DC private schools have screwed over their students for UC admission. And the data shows that. The DC private YC admits to UCLA and UCB are very low last two years (can see it on UC regeants website)

So most parents and kids ignored signing up for AP tests (you can take the tests but they don’t teach the class). A small subset took the tests.

My advice - if you think at all that your kid fits into any of these buckets (placing out / up of some college core, UK/EU/Canada colleges, or UC) then have them sign up for AP tests at beginning of each each school year - esp sophomore, jr, senior. You can always opt out in the spring

Now if my $45k of tuition would compel the college office to explain this to parents and kids in advance, it would be great.

Instead they send this annual September email that says “you don’t need to sign up for these tests but here’s the link).

We may have a child at the same school - not sure. Our school also is very "squishy" on AP details and/or advice. I decided to ignore the "it doesn't matter" message and sign up DC for exams in language, history, language, math (but this was a AP class) and DC was glad that I did based on results and their applicability to many of the points you mention above.

But a few things:

1) The UK/EU schools require AP scores - NOT courses. If your child is a rising senior and still wants to apply to these schools, all is not lost. UK schools will often accept students with a with the condition that the student will get the required AP scores by the end of Senior year. This is because UK schools have to accept students before they have taken A-level exams...so acceptances are conditional based on the "predicted" A-level test scores. They do the same for AP scores. Also note that at most schools, if your student has a high SAT/ACT score - they will only need three AP's with a score of 5 (versus lower SAT/ACT might require five AP's with a score of 5)

2) Your UCLA/Cal stats are not likely AP related - they are more likely related to the fact that these UC schools are shutting out out-of-state students at higher levels now AND that in diversity efforts, it favors public school kids. There will be an admissions officer at UC that knows your DC's private school and can apply or interpret the GPA appropriately. What you are seeing is far more likely....the last thing we need is a rich private school kid from DC when we have plenty of smart kids to choose from in DC.

[Anonymous]

Why is STA still offering numerous AP courses, after they joined the coalition 5 years ago?

[Anonymous]

In reality most of these schools will still offer the same classes they always have just without the AP designation. Giving their teachers the freedom to go in-depth/tangent on whatever topic interest them(not necessarily students) and provide the schools more marketing freedom about rigorousness of their classes. The students will then buy all the prep materials(books,cards,mock exams) to prepare for the exam outside of class and take the AP exams. The schools will in turn claim some great feat of education by indicating the % of students passing the AP exam without taking the course.

Until I see or hear of a new slate of courses at these schools that kids are excited about, I’ll take it for exactly what it seems, a marketing ploy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In reality most of these schools will still offer the same classes they always have just without the AP designation. Giving their teachers the freedom to go in-depth/tangent on whatever topic interest them(not necessarily students) and provide the schools more marketing freedom about rigorousness of their classes. The students will then buy all the prep materials(books,cards,mock exams) to prepare for the exam outside of class and take the AP exams. The schools will in turn claim some great feat of education by indicating the % of students passing the AP exam without taking the course.

Until I see or hear of a new slate of courses at these schools that kids are excited about, I’ll take it for exactly what it seems, a marketing ploy.

+1000%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a rule in all debates on AP courses that no one ever talks about what is actually taught in AP courses vs. their existing substitutes. The two camps just choose up sides for and against and punch away from there.

I tried to interject earlier what I know about AP History and Geography courses to no avail. I know why I prefer, as a teacher, not to teach to the AP test. But no one else here has shown any indication that they know what is taught in an AP classroom or included on an AP exam other than what they have heard second- or thirdhand.

A real debate what include what is taught in AP-substitute courses and whether it seems more worthwhile or not. I keep hoping that someone informed will join the debate for that purpose.

Worthwhile according to whom? The very point of not sticking to AP classes is that different schools value different things -- that's part of the point of private school.