Junior year grades

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

Different PP. That doesn’t make sense if you are also the poster who says a student with a handful of Bs is on a different level that a 4.0 student and shouldn’t be at an elite school. Doesn’t a student with a few Bs in all rigorous classes come across as stronger than a 4.0 student with less rigor??? Obviously the kids with all As with lots of rigor are a at the tippy top, but I find it hard to believe that a couple of Bs with lots of rigor would be a disqualified for T10-30 schools.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Btw, a D, even in a rigorous class, is not a good thing for anyone. But I agree that retaking course senior year shows perseverance. Student (and counselor) need to come up with a viable explanation for why it happened. It wont stop you from getting into most schools, but it will for the T20-30/elite schools, unless there is a really good reason (family death, major illness, etc).

DCUM wisom on minimum acceptable grades in rigorous classes?

Not sure the question?

No one can really tell "how bad of a grade is too bad". However, most T20-T30/elite schools have admission rates of 5-10%. So they do not need to accept someone who gets a D or C in a rigorous course. There are plenty of students who never get below a B even in rigorous courses to select from; heck there are plenty who never get below an A/A-. And there are plenty of students who manage this while taking 4-7 AP/IB courses in a single year. Unless your student can truly "own the grade" and has a truly valid reason for why it happened (ie. Parent was ill/student was ill/ major family issues etc that were the direct cause), the grade WILL impact them in college admissions. That's just where we are in life. However, I'd argue that it's been that way for a long time. Even 30 years ago, a C/D on your transcript would impact you at elite colleges.
However, there are still plenty of GREAT schools your student will get into. It's not the end of the world as DCUM would make it out to be.

I'd argue that if your kid cannot get at least a B-/B in a "rigorous course in HS", that perhaps they are not cut out for a T20 school and that is OK. Because for example, IB calculus or AP Calculus BC are just the beginning of "rigorous courses", and Calc 3/4/Diff EQ and beyond are much harder courses and you can still get a sucky professor at a Top University (had plenty myself along with really good ones too).

I should have been clearer in my question: I meant to ask what DCUM's wisdom was on the question of minimum acceptable grades in rigorous courses for a student to still be competitive at T10/T20 colleges. But this is a very informative response. Thanks! Rising Sophomore DC is not heading in a STEM direction for college and is unsure as to whether to take on the "most rigorous courses" throughout in HS in Math/Science for admissions purposes (standard problem for many parents, I guess).

For T10-20 from public school all As (maybe an A- or two).

Mine got all As and a couple Bs. Had very rigorous curriculum in magnet though. Got into 3 Ivies/T10.

Would you share which magnet? Mine got a B last year and people keep acting like it’s not even worth applying to ivys with that. I really don’t know how much to adjust for the magnet factor.

Blair. But, we did know other kids w/ straight As who didn't get into any. DD had excellent ECs and nat'l awards. Probably should have mentioned that, but I just wanted to say that a couple Bs aren't necessarily a dealbreaker.

It might depend in part on other things, like what program he is applying to. For an unhooked boy applying for CS, one low grade will matter. For a boy applying for humanities, it might not. Similarly, a kid applying for theater can get away with lower grades. Point is, some majors are more competitive than others and for some demographics matter a lot.

What is this notion that a kid in theatre can have lower grades. That is ridiculous unless it is an audition based bfa possibly.

Struck a nerve I guess. It absolutely does matter the program/major and some are less competitive and more grade reliant than others. Be happy your DC got into a good school for theater but that absolutely does not mean a kid with similar grades would get in for CS. And audition based programs like CMU are 80% based on audition and academic portfolio makes up only 20%.

Struck a nerve with accuracy and facts. My DC got into Ivies. They don't place by major because you don't declare until later. I have a theatre degree. GPA is not necessarily lower.

[Anonymous]

^^Also DC listed Math as potential major

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

It is the older that has a few Bs! I was responding to a prior poster who said there is a difference between a 4.0 student and a student with a handful of Bs. My older has a few Bs because he was up for trying BC calculus and AP physics instead of AB calculus and AP ES like his sibling who has the 4.0.

[Anonymous]

So many factors go into it and if your kid wants to try for Ivy, go for it. Don’t count on someone else’s academic history to determine your academic future.

Besides it’s who you know and how big your bank account is 😆

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

It is the older that has a few Bs! I was responding to a prior poster who said there is a difference between a 4.0 student and a student with a handful of Bs. My older has a few Bs because he was up for trying BC calculus and AP physics instead of AB calculus and AP ES like his sibling who has the 4.0.

Folks often underestimate the relevance of teacher quality/learning styles in all this. In less rigorous classes, thees factors matter less. Higher rigor and all of a sudden the gap between a poor teacher and a better one stand exposes as does the match between teaching and learning styles of individual students. A given student can do much better in a given course with a certain type of teacher than another. I would be less judgmental about "better" vs 'worse" students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

It is the older that has a few Bs! I was responding to a prior poster who said there is a difference between a 4.0 student and a student with a handful of Bs. My older has a few Bs because he was up for trying BC calculus and AP physics instead of AB calculus and AP ES like his sibling who has the 4.0.

Folks often underestimate the relevance of teacher quality/learning styles in all this. In less rigorous classes, thees factors matter less. Higher rigor and all of a sudden the gap between a poor teacher and a better one stand exposes as does the match between teaching and learning styles of individual students. A given student can do much better in a given course with a certain type of teacher than another. I would be less judgmental about "better" vs 'worse" students.

My kid also went for BC Calc early and got a B+… guessing this was good for his learning but knocks a bunch of colleges off his list. Would be interested in your kid’s experience.

[Anonymous]

DS is a rising junior at Sidwell. Grades came in a few days back. Mix of A-s and B+ grades (including in one rigorous science class). A bit lower than last semester's grades overall. Not sure what to make of it...Any DCUM observations?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DS is a rising junior at Sidwell. Grades came in a few days back. Mix of A-s and B+ grades (including in one rigorous science class). A bit lower than last semester's grades overall. Not sure what to make of it...Any DCUM observations?

Seems like a strong mix to me! This is Sidwell, right? Of course there are a small handful of students banging out A grades across the board. DC should stay motivated through Junior/secior years. Will end up at a good/great place. Not a T5 school. But worry not: DC may very well end up with a better education outside of the top 5 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Btw, a D, even in a rigorous class, is not a good thing for anyone. But I agree that retaking course senior year shows perseverance. Student (and counselor) need to come up with a viable explanation for why it happened. It wont stop you from getting into most schools, but it will for the T20-30/elite schools, unless there is a really good reason (family death, major illness, etc).

DCUM wisom on minimum acceptable grades in rigorous classes?

Schools in the top 50 dislike Bs, but will deal with them. They really hate Cs. They cannot understand a D at all, especially in this day of grade inflation. If it is in a college level course, they may give some leeway, but you are likely to get WL then rejected. An A in a lower level course would have been the better path.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

Different PP. That doesn’t make sense if you are also the poster who says a student with a handful of Bs is on a different level that a 4.0 student and shouldn’t be at an elite school. Doesn’t a student with a few Bs in all rigorous classes come across as stronger than a 4.0 student with less rigor??? Obviously the kids with all As with lots of rigor are a at the tippy top, but I find it hard to believe that a couple of Bs with lots of rigor would be a disqualified for T10-30 schools.

I just wanted to chime in and say be careful with assumptions about kids who got some Bs in rigorous classes not being in the same league. . There is a difference between students with As who works hard for that A versus a gifted child who barely studies, turns in homework late but gets 100 on every test (thus final grade of B). That’s my kid. He’s going to a T20 school. He hated online school due to covid junior year and got mostly Bs that year. I think some elite colleges can sniff out these kids. A lot of brilliant kids may have ADHD or on the autism spectrum (undiagnosed or diagnosed) and I think it is pretty common in these circles.

I spoke to a parent who went to MIT and he described a kid just like my child who barely studied, watched tv, and aces every exam. Meanwhile the MIT parent had to study hard for his C. That’s when he realized he was not in the same league and based on his experience he has opted not to send his kids to a high stress culture university. I understand his approach but it’s more than about getting As in college (or HS). My child needs to be amongst his intellectual peers in order to thrive and reach his potential. His maturity is kicking in and he will be ready for the work whereas he wasn’t at age 16-17.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

Different PP. That doesn’t make sense if you are also the poster who says a student with a handful of Bs is on a different level that a 4.0 student and shouldn’t be at an elite school. Doesn’t a student with a few Bs in all rigorous classes come across as stronger than a 4.0 student with less rigor??? Obviously the kids with all As with lots of rigor are a at the tippy top, but I find it hard to believe that a couple of Bs with lots of rigor would be a disqualified for T10-30 schools.

I just wanted to chime in and say be careful with assumptions about kids who got some Bs in rigorous classes not being in the same league. . There is a difference between students with As who works hard for that A versus a gifted child who barely studies, turns in homework late but gets 100 on every test (thus final grade of B). That’s my kid. He’s going to a T20 school. He hated online school due to covid junior year and got mostly Bs that year. I think some elite colleges can sniff out these kids. A lot of brilliant kids may have ADHD or on the autism spectrum (undiagnosed or diagnosed) and I think it is pretty common in these circles.

I spoke to a parent who went to MIT and he described a kid just like my child who barely studied, watched tv, and aces every exam. Meanwhile the MIT parent had to study hard for his C. That’s when he realized he was not in the same league and based on his experience he has opted not to send his kids to a high stress culture university. I understand his approach but it’s more than about getting As in college (or HS). My child needs to be amongst his intellectual peers in order to thrive and reach his potential. His maturity is kicking in and he will be ready for the work whereas he wasn’t at age 16-17.

Oh good heavens. Truly gifted and creative kids can thrive in lots of different environments. If your kid needs to be among his "intellectual peers" to get motivated, you have bigger problems to worry about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread depresses me. The notion that one bad grade or a handful of Bs derails kids’ chances when they are otherwise strong applicants is really a bummer for these kids. Yes, there is more to life than top-ranked colleges and they will all be fine regardless, but given that rising seniors have spent most of their high school years in a pandemic, it would be nice if they could just catch a break without having to justify why one grade doesn’t reflect who they are as a student.

But realistically-the kid with straight As through high school and the kid with a handful of Bs or a D are fundamentally different students. I have both in my family (in fact they're twins) and they're very, very different kids and frankly they shouldn't be going to the same college. their work ethics, academic inclinations, etc are quite different.

This just isn’t true. My older son took all most rigorous classes - through linear algebra and AP physics, and graduated with all As and a handful of Bs. My younger who is a rising HS senior also takes rigorous classes but a notch below (AP calculus AB instead of BC, AP envt’l science instead of physics, won’t take AP world language until senior year), and is on track to graduate with a 4.0. Both are equally strong students, I’d argue the older was always up for more academic challenge, and the younger has been able to avoid Bs by taking AB calc, etc.

You just stated the older "was up for more academically challenge". Well that is the difference often times between those who attend "elite" and the next level of colleges. Your 2nd kid is obviously very smart too, but not as self motivated as the other, or he'd have taken the more "rigorous" courses. Both will do extremely well, and will thrive wherever they go. But the first will have a better chance at an Elite admission.

Different PP. That doesn’t make sense if you are also the poster who says a student with a handful of Bs is on a different level that a 4.0 student and shouldn’t be at an elite school. Doesn’t a student with a few Bs in all rigorous classes come across as stronger than a 4.0 student with less rigor??? Obviously the kids with all As with lots of rigor are a at the tippy top, but I find it hard to believe that a couple of Bs with lots of rigor would be a disqualified for T10-30 schools.

I just wanted to chime in and say be careful with assumptions about kids who got some Bs in rigorous classes not being in the same league. . There is a difference between students with As who works hard for that A versus a gifted child who barely studies, turns in homework late but gets 100 on every test (thus final grade of B). That’s my kid. He’s going to a T20 school. He hated online school due to covid junior year and got mostly Bs that year. I think some elite colleges can sniff out these kids. A lot of brilliant kids may have ADHD or on the autism spectrum (undiagnosed or diagnosed) and I think it is pretty common in these circles.

I spoke to a parent who went to MIT and he described a kid just like my child who barely studied, watched tv, and aces every exam. Meanwhile the MIT parent had to study hard for his C. That’s when he realized he was not in the same league and based on his experience he has opted not to send his kids to a high stress culture university. I understand his approach but it’s more than about getting As in college (or HS). My child needs to be amongst his intellectual peers in order to thrive and reach his potential. His maturity is kicking in and he will be ready for the work whereas he wasn’t at age 16-17.

Oh good heavens. Truly gifted and creative kids can thrive in lots of different environments. If your kid needs to be among his "intellectual peers" to get motivated, you have bigger problems to worry about.

I don’t expect everyone to understand. Those who get it will. Obviously this post was not meant for you. Good day.