I have an egalitarian marriage, and I HATE it

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are you poor managers in other realms of your lives?

Seems like you need a meeting to discuss what is not working, and come up with scheduled routines. A family calendar? Chore chart? (Kids can pitch in, depending upon their age.) Everyone should not be trying to do everything. Jobs should be assigned and done according to a plan that everyone agreed to.

I will say, if you have alot of kids, I think there is some inherent chaos built into the cake. Prioritize helping them grow up well.

Life happens, and it does not have to proceeed seamlessly. Embrace the fun and unexpected. It is not some corporate boardroom.

We both work collaboratively with others but neither of us is a manager as both of our professions are inherently solitary. Clearly we both have room to improve here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

OP here. I don’t know. My DH is honestly a lot more empathetic than I am. He is really good with anticipating the needs of our kids day to day. Unfortunately that doesn’t mean he thinks ahead about things like being out of formula, for example. In contrast, I am better at planning just because I am better at planning and enjoy doing it, not because I am using some great empathy reserve to muster the motivation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We split childcare, cooking, cleaning. Everything is always chaos. Who has time to work full time plus communicate constantly about every little detail of home management in order to keep things running remotely smoothly? Power struggles about how to do every little thing since there are two people who have to have ultimate responsibility for the outcome. We are bad at this!! Maybe other people can do it better.

To me the ideal arrangement would be that my husband was out of the house more, earning more money, and I had a part time job and had more time with kids and home management. Why do women complain about that arraignment? I really don't get it. I actually hate having other people (DH, nanny) in my kitchen, doing a half-ass job. My poor kids have part time with me, nanny, and daddy, but no one person who really gets to spend extended, quality time, learning about their needs and being there for them. I hate this.

I disagree. The ideal arrangement is that your husband works part time and does a great job doing nearly everything around the house and with the children. You get up in the morning, put on the clean clothes he hung up for you in the closet that he organized, brush your teeth with the toothpaste he bought, give the kids a kiss and casually tell your husband that one of them might have a runny nose and maybe shouldn’t go to school that day, then go to work. After work, come home and play with the kids while your husband finishes making dinner, do the dishes while he supervises homework, play a game as a family, and put the kids to bed 50% of the time. If you have to work late, you just send him a text to let him know. He figures out what to do.
If it works out, you might take kids to an activity or pick them up after work. If it doesn’t, you just text your husband, and he figures it out.
Saturdays, you make the kids breakfast with the food he bought from the grocery store, dress the kids in their athletic uniforms that he washed and laid out, and go watch their games. Sundays, you sleep in. One of those days, you make dinner. Sometimes you take the kids to visit family or friends.
Holidays and birthdays, you just show up.
Summer, pretty much the same as the rest of the year except you go to the pool more often, congratulate your kids on learning to swim (how did that even happen?), and sometimes your kids tell you they went to camp that day.
Throw in splitting some of the home maintenance, hiring someone to mow the lawn, unloading the dishwasher twice a week, and showing up to parent teacher conferences, and you can say that you do 50% of the housework and childcare when you are home, go to most of their games, are involved in their school, and are still doing great at work.

Lol

[Anonymous]

Why can't you get rid of the nanny and stay home or work part-time? Talk to your husband.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We split childcare, cooking, cleaning. Everything is always chaos. Who has time to work full time plus communicate constantly about every little detail of home management in order to keep things running remotely smoothly? Power struggles about how to do every little thing since there are two people who have to have ultimate responsibility for the outcome. We are bad at this!! Maybe other people can do it better.

To me the ideal arrangement would be that my husband was out of the house more, earning more money, and I had a part time job and had more time with kids and home management. Why do women complain about that arraignment? I really don't get it. I actually hate having other people (DH, nanny) in my kitchen, doing a half-ass job. My poor kids have part time with me, nanny, and daddy, but no one person who really gets to spend extended, quality time, learning about their needs and being there for them. I hate this.

I disagree. The ideal arrangement is that your husband works part time and does a great job doing nearly everything around the house and with the children. You get up in the morning, put on the clean clothes he hung up for you in the closet that he organized, brush your teeth with the toothpaste he bought, give the kids a kiss and casually tell your husband that one of them might have a runny nose and maybe shouldn’t go to school that day, then go to work. After work, come home and play with the kids while your husband finishes making dinner, do the dishes while he supervises homework, play a game as a family, and put the kids to bed 50% of the time. If you have to work late, you just send him a text to let him know. He figures out what to do.
If it works out, you might take kids to an activity or pick them up after work. If it doesn’t, you just text your husband, and he figures it out.
Saturdays, you make the kids breakfast with the food he bought from the grocery store, dress the kids in their athletic uniforms that he washed and laid out, and go watch their games. Sundays, you sleep in. One of those days, you make dinner. Sometimes you take the kids to visit family or friends.
Holidays and birthdays, you just show up.
Summer, pretty much the same as the rest of the year except you go to the pool more often, congratulate your kids on learning to swim (how did that even happen?), and sometimes your kids tell you they went to camp that day.
Throw in splitting some of the home maintenance, hiring someone to mow the lawn, unloading the dishwasher twice a week, and showing up to parent teacher conferences, and you can say that you do 50% of the housework and childcare when you are home, go to most of their games, are involved in their school, and are still doing great at work.

NP. Ugh, this just broke my heart. The idea of seeing my kids so little hurts! (Yes, I’m a SAHM.) I have a lot more sympathy for my husband’s desire to retire now. It’s easy to feel like I’d love a break from the kids and wonder why he wants to be with them so badly, but this was really powerful. Thank you, PP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We split childcare, cooking, cleaning. Everything is always chaos. Who has time to work full time plus communicate constantly about every little detail of home management in order to keep things running remotely smoothly? Power struggles about how to do every little thing since there are two people who have to have ultimate responsibility for the outcome. We are bad at this!! Maybe other people can do it better.

To me the ideal arrangement would be that my husband was out of the house more, earning more money, and I had a part time job and had more time with kids and home management. Why do women complain about that arraignment? I really don't get it. I actually hate having other people (DH, nanny) in my kitchen, doing a half-ass job. My poor kids have part time with me, nanny, and daddy, but no one person who really gets to spend extended, quality time, learning about their needs and being there for them. I hate this.

This is my situation and it's actually fantastic. I never complain about it. It's wonderful. I have a way to succeed at work, time with kids, time to do house stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We split childcare, cooking, cleaning. Everything is always chaos. Who has time to work full time plus communicate constantly about every little detail of home management in order to keep things running remotely smoothly? Power struggles about how to do every little thing since there are two people who have to have ultimate responsibility for the outcome. We are bad at this!! Maybe other people can do it better.

To me the ideal arrangement would be that my husband was out of the house more, earning more money, and I had a part time job and had more time with kids and home management. Why do women complain about that arraignment? I really don't get it. I actually hate having other people (DH, nanny) in my kitchen, doing a half-ass job. My poor kids have part time with me, nanny, and daddy, but no one person who really gets to spend extended, quality time, learning about their needs and being there for them. I hate this.

My wife has what you want in my marriage - I am out of the house and earn a lot of money. And my wife is now miserable because she feels at age 46 she never had a real career and is resentful of me for having mine.

Not saying that you would feel the same, just answering your question.

I wonder if your wife feels the way she feels because she is inherently dissatisfied or more because the cultural tides have turned more aggressively, and she craves the status that being the wife of a successful husband used to confer but now does not.

The cultural rides have indeed turned. Assortative mating of the 1% is the model looked upto now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

OP here. I don’t know. My DH is honestly a lot more empathetic than I am. He is really good with anticipating the needs of our kids day to day. Unfortunately that doesn’t mean he thinks ahead about things like being out of formula, for example. In contrast, I am better at planning just because I am better at planning and enjoy doing it, not because I am using some great empathy reserve to muster the motivation.

We might just be defining "empathetic" differently, but I think it's the same thing. To me, thinking ahead about making sure you don't run out of formula is a form of empathy, because you are in tune to the fact that the baby needs to eat and relies on you for food and you have to remember that.

My DH really loves and is super kind to our kids. They are great together. But he regularly forgets stuff like that they need to eat at specific times, that if they don't get to bed by a certain hour it really messes them up the next day, that if you want to leave the house by a certain time that means starting to get ready 30 minutes prior, etc. And I do think the reason I'm better at those things is not because I'm naturally a better planner. I think it's because it's been drilled into me since I was very young that if someone might be hungry, tired, bored, need help with something, etc., that I should make an effort to address it. Especially if it's my own child. And I think my DH just... never got that message. I think he was used to having his needs met and that his parents and his community didn't really impress upon him the idea that it was his responsibility to meet other people's needs. He's a reasonably empathetic person, but very few men develop that skill. And women are often trained for it. I don't think we're born that way, but by the time we get married, many of us have refined this skill to the point that our husbands will probably never catch up unless they are an outlier.

[Anonymous]

I hear you, OP. This is why I’m part time. DH is not a super high earner so it’s meant making some sacrifices, but has been worth it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

Oh please, this so let's men off the hook. I see it again and again on DCUM and real life. How come they can do all this anticipating and organizing and managing in the workplace? Where many of these DHs are managers and in leadership positions and running orgs?

No one wants to do this stuff at home if someone else is doing it for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

Oh please, this so let's men off the hook. I see it again and again on DCUM and real life. How come they can do all this anticipating and organizing and managing in the workplace? Where many of these DHs are managers and in leadership positions and running orgs?

No one wants to do this stuff at home if someone else is doing it for them.

Listen, I don’t want to let men off the hook. But it is fantasy some people have that if you simply demand they do their fair share and refuse to pick up the slack, then they will step up. Maybe they step up more than they were, which is nice. But I have known dozens of women with this problem and not one of their husbands actually stepped up to do what most women I know do.

Scratch that, I just remembered. I worked with a guy once who took a step back in his career to be primary parent to his kids while his wife had the big career. He genuinely did it as well or better than most women I know. And the interesting thing is that half the people in the office thought he was done kind of saint (for doing what most mothers wind up doing as a matter of course), and the other half though we was in sufficiently ambitious (so they treated him just like they would have treated a mom in the same situation— progressive?). Anyway. So one man out of the dozens I’ve known over 30 years.

Most women can’t wait it out to see if their DH is that guy. Some choose to divorce and force the issue through shared custody. But most just accept this is how it is. They aren’t “letting men off the hook.” Society already did that. They are just trying to have a functional life and make sure their kids get what they need.

[Anonymous]

^insufficiently ambitious. Dumb autocorrect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[

And that's why middle and working class families often choose a division of labor that seems non-egalitarian compared to UMC professionals. I think the assumption is that it's a political choice, that they are just old fashioned about gender roles. But I think more often it's just much, much more efficient, if you have to take care of all this stuff yourself, to have one person doing paid labor and one person doing most of the unpaid labor. Yes, there are consequences to this that are bad for women. But there are tons of benefits to the family. So when rich people tell middle class people "you just need to get your husband to do more" without acknowledging that they use this handy third option (hire someone to do it) that might not be available to everyone, I get annoyed. The equality of UMC professional marriages is not always possible at a lower HHI.

Great points! Sometimes I love DCUM bc people have thoughtful insightful perspectives.

Disagree. There is NO reason why women are “better” or “more efficient” at this stuff. Anyone who’s done it for a week knows it’s a huge grind. Guys can grind it out too. FWIW in my house we do not outsource a lot and dad is doing everything as efficiently as mom, whether it’s mornings with the kids, packing lunches, dishes, laundry, restocking cleaning supplies, or what have you. Absolutely no estrogen required. What do you think gay couples do?

Ehhh, I think there’s some truth to some of these things, at least for, say, GenX and older couples. Most of us GenXers were still socialized with women cooking and men doing yard/handy work. So that’s how DH and I divide things up. Can he cook? Sure. Can I fix stuff? Sure. But we’re both specialized enough in those tasks now that yes, it’s far more efficient for me to do most of the cooking and food and him to fix everything that breaks. We’re UMC but this is the division of labor that works well for our family. He does his own laundry and more cleaning than I do (our regular cleaning person isn’t vaxxed, so DH is scrubbing bathrooms and such). It works.

Homosexual couples are likely often far more intentional about division of labor than most heterosexual couples, which is probably a good thing.

It’s socialization and, importantly, it’s really not about doing. It’s the managing, organizing, anticipating. The problem is that, in general (obviously there are exceptions), women are raised to think about what other people need far more than men are. And that’s where men struggle. It’s not that they can’t do the actual component tasks. It’s that they often lack the empathy and thoughtfulness to anticipate what needs to be done and do it. No one has ever really expected them to do this. So women do it.

It has nothing to do with natural ability or genetic predisposition. But by the time people marry and have kids, men are far behind the curve.

Oh please, this so let's men off the hook. I see it again and again on DCUM and real life. How come they can do all this anticipating and organizing and managing in the workplace? Where many of these DHs are managers and in leadership positions and running orgs?

No one wants to do this stuff at home if someone else is doing it for them.

Listen, I don’t want to let men off the hook. But it is fantasy some people have that if you simply demand they do their fair share and refuse to pick up the slack, then they will step up. Maybe they step up more than they were, which is nice. But I have known dozens of women with this problem and not one of their husbands actually stepped up to do what most women I know do.

Scratch that, I just remembered. I worked with a guy once who took a step back in his career to be primary parent to his kids while his wife had the big career. He genuinely did it as well or better than most women I know. And the interesting thing is that half the people in the office thought he was done kind of saint (for doing what most mothers wind up doing as a matter of course), and the other half though we was in sufficiently ambitious (so they treated him just like they would have treated a mom in the same situation— progressive?). Anyway. So one man out of the dozens I’ve known over 30 years.

Most women can’t wait it out to see if their DH is that guy. Some choose to divorce and force the issue through shared custody. But most just accept this is how it is. They aren’t “letting men off the hook.” Society already did that. They are just trying to have a functional life and make sure their kids get what they need.

This is ridiculous. Yes, I married a man who cooks… but so did 90% of my friends. None of the guys I know in my generation have any issue whatsoever cooking, cleaning up, parenting, doing laundry, or shopping. This is life stuff. And when we were dating I told my husband my career was important to me and he was not only cool with it but indicated that he understood what it would take because his mom had a serious career. My husband makes twice as much as I do but I’ve never felt like he couldn’t pull his weight. Did we have lots of talks? Yes. Do I occasionally take on more mental load? Yes, but he compensates by doing other things. We are a team. The vast majority of my friends — who are doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. — have a partner at home who can do it all.