Study on DC school lottery and school segregation

[Anonymous]

I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

[Anonymous]

I found this article from 2002 to be really interesting in thinking about how individual (pretty) reasonable preferences can aggregate and lead to segregated outcomes.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2002/04/seeing-around-corners/302471/

The gist is that these computer models show that even if someone with 4 immediate neighbors is comfortable with 2 of them being of a different group, over repeated periods the groups will segregate. It's only by truly being comfortable as a minority, with 3 of your 4 neighbors being a different group, that integration is stable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

Honestly, the news - national and international - is wearing me out. If all of my children's classmates could be the Duchess of Cambridge's children that would be fine. It would look safer. It would be safer. I'm tired of the angry and the crazy and the violence and the insanity and the slaughter.

[Anonymous]

This is an interesting counter to the statement of so many white people who state push for less group indentity -- "Why does it have to be Black Lives Matter? WE are all individuals-- what's is important is that we all Americans. We should work together rather than divide ourselves up." As a white person, I see this so much white privilege-- i.e., "it is easy for you as a white person to eschew group identity because you don't need to support of a group going through what you are going through." But studies like this indicate there also could be hypocracy going on with these white. They put down group identity by others, meanwhile they want to be darn sure that their kids have the support of the group that is going through the same things they are. I suppose it is possible that these are different groups of white people, but I suspect at least a bit of overlap.

[Anonymous]

Interesting. What middle schools in DC with less than 10% white students have similar test scores to schools with more than 20%? The Howard middle school? I do think the pure segregation motives become more clear when you look at Howard MS and Banneker HS.

[Anonymous]

I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

Meanwhile, as everyone on DCUM knows, KIPP is supposed to have good test scores, but it's also a "drill and kill." In fact, most of the majority minority schools with good scores are "drill and kills" and upper SES families don't want that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Uh no, it's not "natural." That is kind of the point of the whole study: attitudes towards race in school differ depending on race. White parents are less willing to send their kids to schools where they will be a minority than black parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

I just read the Slate article and found it interesting, but when I followed up by reading the actual study, it seems to offer far more nuanced, and frankly different, conclusions than what the Slate writer suggests. I generally respect Slate's coverage, but I think the writer here might've let her desire for a popular narrative bias her reading of the actual study results. Also, if you're generally familiar with the quality/location/reputation of DC's public schools and its lottery process, it's not hard to read between the lines of the study and know which specific schools were driving the results. With that context in mind, the Slate writer's mistaken slant appears even more noticeable.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

Meanwhile, as everyone on DCUM knows, KIPP is supposed to have good test scores, but it's also a "drill and kill." In fact, most of the majority minority schools with good scores are "drill and kills" and upper SES families don't want that.

We've been over this. For SOME reason, the progressive charters all located where high SES families can travel, but Wards 7 and 8 get KIPP and Rocketship. This is not a demand-side problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

I just read the Slate article and found it interesting, but when I followed up by reading the actual study, it seems to offer far more nuanced, and frankly different, conclusions than what the Slate writer suggests. I generally respect Slate's coverage, but I think the writer here might've let her desire for a popular narrative bias her reading of the actual study results. Also, if you're generally familiar with the quality/location/reputation of DC's public schools and its lottery process, it's not hard to read between the lines of the study and know which specific schools were driving the results. With that context in mind, the Slate writer's mistaken slant appears even more noticeable.

Why don't you spell it out in detail? Is it about parents hysterical to get into Deal and not Hardy?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

I just read the Slate article and found it interesting, but when I followed up by reading the actual study, it seems to offer far more nuanced, and frankly different, conclusions than what the Slate writer suggests. I generally respect Slate's coverage, but I think the writer here might've let her desire for a popular narrative bias her reading of the actual study results. Also, if you're generally familiar with the quality/location/reputation of DC's public schools and its lottery process, it's not hard to read between the lines of the study and know which specific schools were driving the results. With that context in mind, the Slate writer's mistaken slant appears even more noticeable.

Whenever I read news summaries of academic papers in my field, it is glaring how badly they miss the point. I assume that this is the case in almost every other field as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Uh no, it's not "natural." That is kind of the point of the whole study: attitudes towards race in school differ depending on race. White parents are less willing to send their kids to schools where they will be a minority than black parents.

In the sentence above they were both minority groups- just one is 10% and one is 20%. You are telling me you'd rather have your kid be at a school where their race makes up 10% than 20%? I

[Anonymous]

Here's what the ACTUAL paper said:

Parents trade off school demographics and academic performance with distance when choosing schools.

Parents tend to prefer schools where their children have at least some peers of the same race or ethnicity, but some parents also prefer a diverse school to a homogeneous one.

Preferences vary by race, income, and grade level.

Simulations suggest that parent preferences, if allowed to dominate school assignment (with no capacity constraints), translate into more racial and economic integration and higher enrollment in high-performing schools.

https://www.mathematica-mpr.com/our-publications-and-findings/publications/market-signals-evidence-on-the-determinants-and-consequences-of-school-choice-from-a-citywide

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Here's what the ACTUAL paper said:

Parents trade off school demographics and academic performance with distance when choosing schools.

Parents tend to prefer schools where their children have at least some peers of the same race or ethnicity, but some parents also prefer a diverse school to a homogeneous one.

Preferences vary by race, income, and grade level.

Simulations suggest that parent preferences, if allowed to dominate school assignment (with no capacity constraints), translate into more racial and economic integration and higher enrollment in high-performing schools.

https://www.mathematica-mpr.com/our-publications-and-findings/publications/market-signals-evidence-on-the-determinants-and-consequences-of-school-choice-from-a-citywide

Ok so how do the preferences vary by race? That's what we're talking about here.