Study on DC school lottery and school segregation

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Uh no, it's not "natural." That is kind of the point of the whole study: attitudes towards race in school differ depending on race. White parents are less willing to send their kids to schools where they will be a minority than black parents.

In the sentence above they were both minority groups- just one is 10% and one is 20%. You are telling me you'd rather have your kid be at a school where their race makes up 10% than 20%? I

If test scores and convenience were the same, 10% and 20% don't make a difference. There are probably more unique factors that would play in, like the school focus, extra curriculars, whether the kid already had friends going ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read the study itself, but the slate article hones in on a key issue - the desire of mostly white high-SES families to choose schools based on race even against with comparable test scores with fewer white students:

This quote from the slate article is fascinating, and I think reflects well what we see discussed in this forum:

"Across race and class, a middle-school parent was 12 percent more likely to choose a school where his child’s race made up 20 percent of the study body, compared with a school with similar test scores where his child’s race made up only 10 percent of the study body. White and higher-income applicants had the strongest preferences for their children to remain in-group, while black elementary school parents were essentially 'indifferent' to a school’s racial makeup, the researchers found. The findings for Hispanic elementary and middle school parents were not statistically significant."

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/education/2016/07/when_white_parents_have_a_choice_they_choose_segregated_schools.html

I just read the Slate article and found it interesting, but when I followed up by reading the actual study, it seems to offer far more nuanced, and frankly different, conclusions than what the Slate writer suggests. I generally respect Slate's coverage, but I think the writer here might've let her desire for a popular narrative bias her reading of the actual study results. Also, if you're generally familiar with the quality/location/reputation of DC's public schools and its lottery process, it's not hard to read between the lines of the study and know which specific schools were driving the results. With that context in mind, the Slate writer's mistaken slant appears even more noticeable.

Why don't you spell it out in detail? Is it about parents hysterical to get into Deal and not Hardy?

I thought it was about parents hysterical to get into Latin and DCI but not KIPP or Rocketship or Eliot-Hine.

[Anonymous]

There has been academic work done on the "tipping point" for white people to feel that a neighborhood is "too Black/brown" and it is startlingly low.

The first wave of white people will leave if a neighborhood is just 5% white, and most white people will choose to leave at a tipping point of about 11%.

I would expect that can be extrapolated to schools as well, which means that white tolerance for Black/brown classmates is significantly lower than the share of Black/brown folks in the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Uh no, it's not "natural." That is kind of the point of the whole study: attitudes towards race in school differ depending on race. White parents are less willing to send their kids to schools where they will be a minority than black parents.

I also think it is natural. I suspect the difference you observe among black parents is due to the fact that success-oriented black parents know that schools with more white kids tend to be the higher performing ones and that their kids might be better off going to those schools. Otherwise, I think blacks are just as likely to self-segregate as whites are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

I'm the poster who quickly read the actual study (free to download!). The study authors make this same point, and have nice graphs showing how white parents in DC are less likely to choose a school with very low percentages of white students (ie, the lonely only), but once the level of white students reaches some level, their preference disappears. The study authors even suggest that white parents in DC might be less likely to pick a school that's too white, perhaps because they value diversity more.

FWIW, knowing the DC schools, I suspect this specific change in preference the authors highlight has more to do with the specific schools involved and their reputations. In general, at least from my cursory look, it appears the race preference results are fairly inconsistent and disorganized. I'm no expert, and I've only quickly read the study once, but it seemed to me that even though the authors studied racial preferences as one of their possible factors (and obviously Slate hyped that part of the study), the numbers on race didn't seem to be the real driver on school choice. If I had to guess, the real driver on school choice in the DC lottery system is the local reputation of the school. Parents who are motivated enough to participate in the lottery are generally aware of the reputation of schools they're selecting. Those subjective reputations come from discussions with friends and neighbors. The reputation of a school doesn't always match the cold numbers on academic performance or other qualities. So I think the disorganized results the researchers saw is a reflection of the fact that they were studying the "wrong" variables, or at least variables that weren't really driving the decisions of lottery participants.

[Anonymous]

Thank you for the link and the reminder of the value of looking at source documents, rather than relying solely on others' interpretation of the material.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what the ACTUAL paper said:

Parents trade off school demographics and academic performance with distance when choosing schools.

Parents tend to prefer schools where their children have at least some peers of the same race or ethnicity, but some parents also prefer a diverse school to a homogeneous one.

Preferences vary by race, income, and grade level.

Simulations suggest that parent preferences, if allowed to dominate school assignment (with no capacity constraints), translate into more racial and economic integration and higher enrollment in high-performing schools.

https://www.mathematica-mpr.com/our-publications-and-findings/publications/market-signals-evidence-on-the-determinants-and-consequences-of-school-choice-from-a-citywide

Ok so how do the preferences vary by race? That's what we're talking about here.

Look at page 19- you'll see that while white students were more likely to choose a school with 20% white students than black students were, ALL of this pales in comparison to location/convenience and the quality of the school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There has been academic work done on the "tipping point" for white people to feel that a neighborhood is "too Black/brown" and it is startlingly low.

The first wave of white people will leave if a neighborhood is just 5% white [do you mean 5% non-white?], and most white people will choose to leave at a tipping point of about 11%.

I would expect that can be extrapolated to schools as well, which means that white tolerance for Black/brown classmates is significantly lower than the share of Black/brown folks in the country.

Source?

Also, how does this claim translate to DC, where hardly any neighborhoods are 90% white? If what you're claiming is true, then DC should be suffering massive white flight. Instead, what we see is white gentrifiers flocking to move into "black" neighborhoods. The facts around us don't seem to square with your claim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

I'm the poster who quickly read the actual study (free to download!). The study authors make this same point, and have nice graphs showing how white parents in DC are less likely to choose a school with very low percentages of white students (ie, the lonely only), but once the level of white students reaches some level, their preference disappears. The study authors even suggest that white parents in DC might be less likely to pick a school that's too white, perhaps because they value diversity more.

FWIW, knowing the DC schools, I suspect this specific change in preference the authors highlight has more to do with the specific schools involved and their reputations. In general, at least from my cursory look, it appears the race preference results are fairly inconsistent and disorganized. I'm no expert, and I've only quickly read the study once, but it seemed to me that even though the authors studied racial preferences as one of their possible factors (and obviously Slate hyped that part of the study), the numbers on race didn't seem to be the real driver on school choice. If I had to guess, the real driver on school choice in the DC lottery system is the local reputation of the school. Parents who are motivated enough to participate in the lottery are generally aware of the reputation of schools they're selecting. Those subjective reputations come from discussions with friends and neighbors. The reputation of a school doesn't always match the cold numbers on academic performance or other qualities. So I think the disorganized results the researchers saw is a reflection of the fact that they were studying the "wrong" variables, or at least variables that weren't really driving the decisions of lottery participants.

But reputation aboslutely turns on race. Otherwise you can't explain Banneker and Howard MS. As well as all the parents who deem a neighborhood ES to be "improving" by dint of white enrollment (and no other changes whatsoever.) Really, all you have to do is read DCUM to understand the racial aspects of white DC parent preferences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Look at page 19- you'll see that while white students were more likely to choose a school with 20% white students than black students were, ALL of this pales in comparison to location/convenience and the quality of the school.

9:47 again. I like this explanation even better than the reputation one I suggested. I admit I got a little bored and distracted after reading the race section of the study, so I only skimmed the last parts. I must've missed the clear correlation on location/convenience. Makes sense. Disappointing that Slate did not acknowledge this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

Meanwhile, as everyone on DCUM knows, KIPP is supposed to have good test scores, but it's also a "drill and kill." In fact, most of the majority minority schools with good scores are "drill and kills" and upper SES families don't want that.

As a generalization, your statement is not true for black families middle class and up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

I'm the poster who quickly read the actual study (free to download!). The study authors make this same point, and have nice graphs showing how white parents in DC are less likely to choose a school with very low percentages of white students (ie, the lonely only), but once the level of white students reaches some level, their preference disappears. The study authors even suggest that white parents in DC might be less likely to pick a school that's too white, perhaps because they value diversity more.

FWIW, knowing the DC schools, I suspect this specific change in preference the authors highlight has more to do with the specific schools involved and their reputations. In general, at least from my cursory look, it appears the race preference results are fairly inconsistent and disorganized. I'm no expert, and I've only quickly read the study once, but it seemed to me that even though the authors studied racial preferences as one of their possible factors (and obviously Slate hyped that part of the study), the numbers on race didn't seem to be the real driver on school choice. If I had to guess, the real driver on school choice in the DC lottery system is the local reputation of the school. Parents who are motivated enough to participate in the lottery are generally aware of the reputation of schools they're selecting. Those subjective reputations come from discussions with friends and neighbors. The reputation of a school doesn't always match the cold numbers on academic performance or other qualities. So I think the disorganized results the researchers saw is a reflection of the fact that they were studying the "wrong" variables, or at least variables that weren't really driving the decisions of lottery participants.

But reputation aboslutely turns on race. Otherwise you can't explain Banneker and Howard MS. As well as all the parents who deem a neighborhood ES to be "improving" by dint of white enrollment (and no other changes whatsoever.) Really, all you have to do is read DCUM to understand the racial aspects of white DC parent preferences.

Banneker and Howard MS do not have test scores high enough to make it worth it for my child to be an only. Stop putting them up there as top schools. They are much better than many in DC but that isn't saying much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:But reputation aboslutely turns on race. Otherwise you can't explain Banneker and Howard MS. As well as all the parents who deem a neighborhood ES to be "improving" by dint of white enrollment (and no other changes whatsoever.) Really, all you have to do is read DCUM to understand the racial aspects of white DC parent preferences.

I agree that deciding on reputation can often reflect race, but I don't agree reputation is primarily driven by race. People of all races largely live in same-race communities, and most often have a majority of same-race friends. So when someone turns to her community to get a sense of reputation, she's most often getting same-race feedback. If a white parent hears 10 of her white neighbors tell her that they're attending School A and it's getting really good, I suspect she's more likely to believe those 10 neighbors and choose School A rather than choose School B, even if School B might have 5% higher scores. So in that scenario, is our white parent choosing School A because it's more white, or is she choosing it because neighbors she knows and trusts told her it's good?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been academic work done on the "tipping point" for white people to feel that a neighborhood is "too Black/brown" and it is startlingly low.

The first wave of white people will leave if a neighborhood is just 5% white [do you mean 5% non-white?], and most white people will choose to leave at a tipping point of about 11%.

I would expect that can be extrapolated to schools as well, which means that white tolerance for Black/brown classmates is significantly lower than the share of Black/brown folks in the country.

Source?

Also, how does this claim translate to DC, where hardly any neighborhoods are 90% white? If what you're claiming is true, then DC should be suffering massive white flight. Instead, what we see is white gentrifiers flocking to move into "black" neighborhoods. The facts around us don't seem to square with your claim.

Enrollment at the local school trails/lags behind gentrification.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think this is natural for anyone- don't you want your kid to go to a school where there's a sizable population of kids of their same race? All things being equal? I think any parent - black, white, etc., would choose that.

Good point. You're not a racist for not wanting your child to be a "lonely only." If only 10% of the school is your child's race, then in a class of 18 students, there's only 8/10ths of another child that looks like him.

I'm the poster who quickly read the actual study (free to download!). The study authors make this same point, and have nice graphs showing how white parents in DC are less likely to choose a school with very low percentages of white students (ie, the lonely only), but once the level of white students reaches some level, their preference disappears. The study authors even suggest that white parents in DC might be less likely to pick a school that's too white, perhaps because they value diversity more.

FWIW, knowing the DC schools, I suspect this specific change in preference the authors highlight has more to do with the specific schools involved and their reputations. In general, at least from my cursory look, it appears the race preference results are fairly inconsistent and disorganized. I'm no expert, and I've only quickly read the study once, but it seemed to me that even though the authors studied racial preferences as one of their possible factors (and obviously Slate hyped that part of the study), the numbers on race didn't seem to be the real driver on school choice. If I had to guess, the real driver on school choice in the DC lottery system is the local reputation of the school. Parents who are motivated enough to participate in the lottery are generally aware of the reputation of schools they're selecting. Those subjective reputations come from discussions with friends and neighbors. The reputation of a school doesn't always match the cold numbers on academic performance or other qualities. So I think the disorganized results the researchers saw is a reflection of the fact that they were studying the "wrong" variables, or at least variables that weren't really driving the decisions of lottery participants.

But reputation aboslutely turns on race. Otherwise you can't explain Banneker and Howard MS. As well as all the parents who deem a neighborhood ES to be "improving" by dint of white enrollment (and no other changes whatsoever.) Really, all you have to do is read DCUM to understand the racial aspects of white DC parent preferences.

Banneker and Howard MS do not have test scores high enough to make it worth it for my child to be an only. Stop putting them up there as top schools. They are much better than many in DC but that isn't saying much.

How does Howard compare to Stuart Hobson, say? Banneker is plenty good enough for white parents to consider, except that it's all black. That's the whole point of this study ...