Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It looks like the quiet part that US outlets haven't been reporting on (despite what cabinet ministers were openly saying) is finally being said


https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html

What is the news there? The far right has been saying this since 2004. The wider Israeli public disagrees.

The far right is the government. The wider public elected them. The urban moderates disagree, but there aren't enough of them to matter

The far right is the small part of the government. The only reason they came to prominence in 2023 if because Bibi could not build a coalition otherwise. Once he is gone so will their prominence.

The far right is an active part of government right now. You can't just wave them away as if their actions and words don't matter.

The far right is refusing to pay the Palestinian Authority their duly collected tax revenue. Without these funds the PA cannot pay salaries. You don't think denying Palestinians their salaries will have any effect?

The far right is also passing out M5 assault rifles like candy. But the new regulations are biased against Arabs, of course. Don't want any Arabs do get guns.

Applicants may be required to provide proof of "sufficient fluency in Hebrew", which is discretionary. Who gets to decide what is sufficient enough in Hebrew?

There is also a new criteria of self-defense and there are two main criteria, military service and residency in an "eligible town." Since Arabs are exempt from military service, this would exclude them. And just by coincidence Arab majority towns are not deemed "eligible towns".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have zero issue with Israel methodically searching through the population of Gaza for Hamas. If no one loses their lives, and they identify terrorist, what could be the argument? Carry on!

That’s the problem - >23 K dead, many more severely injured and hundreds of thousands facing starvation. Mostly women and children.

Please tell us, oh great military mind, how do you methodically search for Hamas fighters who don’t wear a uniform?

I would not indiscriminately bomb women and children.

Hamas indiscriminately kills women and children... at larger percentages than the IDF does.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have zero issue with Israel methodically searching through the population of Gaza for Hamas. If no one loses their lives, and they identify terrorist, what could be the argument? Carry on!

That’s the problem - >23 K dead, many more severely injured and hundreds of thousands facing starvation. Mostly women and children.

Please tell us, oh great military mind, how do you methodically search for Hamas fighters who don’t wear a uniform?

I would not indiscriminately bomb women and children.

Hamas indiscriminately kills women and children... at larger percentages than the IDF does.

But the IDF kills women and children far more efficiently

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have zero issue with Israel methodically searching through the population of Gaza for Hamas. If no one loses their lives, and they identify terrorist, what could be the argument? Carry on!

That’s the problem - >23 K dead, many more severely injured and hundreds of thousands facing starvation. Mostly women and children.

Please tell us, oh great military mind, how do you methodically search for Hamas fighters who don’t wear a uniform?

I would not indiscriminately bomb women and children.

Hamas indiscriminately kills women and children... at larger percentages than the IDF does.

But the IDF kills women and children far more efficiently

The percentages show that IDF is more focused and targeted on Hamas than the indiscriminate nature of Hamas attacks on Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

But you're wrong on the facts, and you're wrong on the conclusion. Other than that, pretty OK, I guess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

Hamas lies constantly. So no one should believe Hamas’ ridiculous estimation of “20K” Gazans killed by the IDF.

But whatever the real number, a highly significant percentage of those killed were probably armed Hamas terrorists, or sadly, human shields sacrificed by Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

Hamas lies constantly. So no one should believe Hamas’ ridiculous estimation of “20K” Gazans killed by the IDF.

But whatever the real number, a highly significant percentage of those killed were probably armed Hamas terrorists, or sadly, human shields sacrificed by Hamas.

The IDF lies constantly in ways so blatant that you would assume they think we're idiots

[Anonymous]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/17/middleeast/israel-far-right-gaza-settler-movement-cmd-intl/index.html

25 - 40%

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

Hamas lies constantly. So no one should believe Hamas’ ridiculous estimation of “20K” Gazans killed by the IDF.

But whatever the real number, a highly significant percentage of those killed were probably armed Hamas terrorists, or sadly, human shields sacrificed by Hamas.

Forty beheaded babies say hello. Also a pregnant woman with her stomach cut open....from the 2017 Mexico. Also, babies on a laundry line and one from the oven.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

IDF fire on 10/7 and resulting casualties are not really contested by either side. Not sure why you call this debunked when it wasn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You have no way of assessing these numbers.

Also, you haven't included casualties buried under the rubble.