Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.

695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians

Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.

The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

Oh sure. OK. You’re totally right

Hamas building its military HQ right under a hospital is totally NOT using the patients and doctors as human shields.


PP: you are completely ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

Oh sure. OK. You’re totally right

Hamas building its military HQ right under a hospital is totally NOT using the patients and doctors as human shields.


PP: you are completely ridiculous.

There was no evidence that its HQ is under the hospital. Don't repeat hasbara lies that even WP did not take seriously.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

PP isn't "foolish ". PP is disseminating disinformation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

Oh sure. OK. You’re totally right

Hamas building its military HQ right under a hospital is totally NOT using the patients and doctors as human shields.


PP: you are completely ridiculous.

There was no evidence that its HQ is under the hospital. Don't repeat hasbara lies that even WP did not take seriously.

There is plenty of evidence. You just reject evidence when it doesn't support your narrative and when it is provided by Jews. Which says a lot more about you than anything else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

Oh sure. OK. You’re totally right :roll:

Hamas building its military HQ right under a hospital is totally NOT using the patients and doctors as human shields. :roll: :roll: :roll:


PP: you are completely ridiculous.

There was no evidence that its HQ is under the hospital. Don't repeat hasbara lies that even WP did not take seriously.

There is plenty of evidence. You just reject evidence when it doesn't support your narrative and when it is provided by Jews. Which says a lot more about you than anything else.

Who said “Jews”? And where is just one shred of actual evidence? If there is plenty of it, please do share it.

If you mean “evidence”, as in, what you heard ZAKA or the IDF or really just about every pro-Israeli source has reported, don’t bother. The extent of false information provided by Israel and its supporters is just far too much to overcome at this point. False intelligence and false reporting have been hallmarks of Israel over the past 75 years.

Anyway, it says a lot about YOU, actually, that you are pathologically unable to distinguish yourself - presumably, as a Jew - from the State of Israel. It ALSO says a lot about the hollow argument that people like you make that Israel is a pluralistic democracy.

Since Jews and Israel are indivisible, in your mind anyway, the logical extension from that is that Israel is NOT a pluralistic democracy. Glad we cleared that one up. That took too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

PP isn't "foolish ". PP is disseminating disinformation.

PP provided information that was provided directly by Israeli governmental agencies and the IDF itself.

That’s “disseminating disinformation”?

Yeah, actually, I guess you’re right. That’s SOP for Israeli sources.

BUT that just means the ACTUAL figures undermine you even further. Sad.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

Oh sure. OK. You’re totally right

Hamas building its military HQ right under a hospital is totally NOT using the patients and doctors as human shields.


PP: you are completely ridiculous.

There was no evidence that its HQ is under the hospital. Don't repeat hasbara lies that even WP did not take seriously.

None. The attempts to document those Israeli claims were frankly embarrassing.

Aside from the war crimes and such, how do IDF supporters show their faces in civilized company now, knowing that the bravado they’ve been selling for decades has been the empty talk that many suspected all along?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

I’m as anti-Hanas as possible. Who is pro-Hanas. They suck. So does the Israeli government.

Why can’t people also be anti-Israeliin your mind, or even just opposed to Israeli actions or its government?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

I’m as anti-Hanas as possible. Who is pro-Hanas. They suck. So does the Israeli government.

Why can’t people also be anti-Israeliin your mind, or even just opposed to Israeli actions or its government?

Thank you--this is awesome. You're demonstrating every phase of the pro-Hamas poster life cycle:

Step 1: make a pro-Hamas argument (in this case, claiming Hamas doesn't hide behind civilians; could easily be "Israel shouldn't exist" or "Israel deliberately failed to stop the 10/7 attacks")

Step 2: argue the pro-Hamas claim; use crap sources (QNN anyone?) to justify as needed

Step 3: when confronted, deny being pro-Hamas

Step 5: claim to be the victim (can't anyone be anti-Israel without being targeted????)

Appreciate the clear demonstration. I will use this as a reference for others in the future.

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Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Not everyone. Only people who care about facts. A rapidly diminishing percentage of people clearly.