Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

With the intelligence they had, they may have seen 10/7 as a strategic advantage. You hear Israeli talking heads speculating about building new beach-side condos in Gaza once the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed and Israel settles the land. 10/7 may have been the excuse they wanted to move in. That could explain Israel's "Hannibal directive"-style response on 10/7, which caused hundreds of people to burn to death. There's a reason Israel has funded Hamas for years, and perhaps a reason the intelligence reports fell on deaf ears.

A single Israeli real estate development agency created a social media ad about building beach condos in Gaza. They were EVISCERATED by the Israeli media and general public even before it hit the international press. I have family in Modi'in, near where they are based, and apparently nobody will work with the company right now because of it. It was an ugly and horrid post and I hope the entire operation goes out of business for it.

Do not think for one second that the average Israeli is sitting around waiting to get their hands on anything in Gaza. I've posted before about the disconnect between what Americans think Israelis are talking about and what Israelis are actually talking about. And right now in Israel, the only thing people are in lockstep agreement about is that the hostages need to be freed now. Other than that, there is tremendous conflict and disagreement about every aspect of this war.

Thank you for posting this. It is very reassuring to know there is so much decency in Israel. I also understand there is internal turmoil and disagreement, and my heart goes out to you as you have relatives in Israel and must be touched by the current situation. I know Bibi is extremely unpopular, and it seems unlikely he will be in power much longer. I hope his successor has more humanity and won't represent the Ben Gvirs or the Eliyahus.

I think the concern about settling Gaza comes from hearing people like Daniella Weiss openly talking about how "the people" (Palestinians are apparently not people in her mind and don't even exist) need to enjoy the coastal scenery of Gaza and settle there. Israeli finance minister Bezalel Smotrich has also openly called for settling the Gaza Strip. Violent settlers in the West Bank apparently believe they have rights to Palestinian-owned property, and their words and actions are disturbing. Their behavior shows they would be delighted to take over Gaza, and the fact that they are allowed to get away with their abusive behavior and ongoing theft of Palestinian property leaves me concerned that their land grabbing would quickly extend into Gaza if they were given half a chance.

It's really important to separate Israeli leadership from the Israeli people, just as it is to separate Hamas from the Palestinian people. Let's hope the leadership of both groups is able to negotiate some way both sides can live in peace. Freeing the surviving hostages would be a good place to start, but I also understand the position that Palestinians (including children as young as 12) who are abducted, held indefinitely in "administrative detention" without charges or access to a lawyer, and apparently routinely abused are in the same predicament as Israeli hostages (absent the bombing and shortage of food and medicine). It must be incredibly offensive to Palestinians to be told that unjustly imprisoning Israelis is more egregious than unjustly imprisoning Palestinians (to be clear, I think both are very, very wrong).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

I agree. Motives matter a great deal.

What is Israel's motive right now? They aren't making Gaza more safe or saving any hostages.

What is the motive of people claiming the most minor sympathy towards Palestinians as anti-Semitism?

What is Azazel and Ben-Gvir's motive?

What is Bibi's motive?

PP here.

Bibi and the rest of the Israeli right wing’s motives are likely ethnic cleansing. Despicable and criminal.

I have seen no instances of anyone being called anti-Semitic for “claiming the most minor sympathies towards Palestinians.”

At most, I’ve seen people conflating anti-Israel with anti-Semitic.

Frankly, the two positions often (but not always) go hand in hand, so it’s understandable (if unfortunate).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The existence or the creation of Israel only means something to Jews. There is nothing in the founding or continuing existence of Israel for the 97% of non Jews in the US. Let’s face it the 97% number has a lot of people who would have to convert to judaism as defined by the state of Israel to actually immigrate.

So when people say oh so and so does not believe Israel should have been created or does not think Israel should exist, you have to remember 97% of Americans have no attachment or stake in Israel. It is not a persuasive argument.

Simply not true.

I’m not Jewish and view the creation of Israel as a tremendous accomplishment in bringing justice to a historically oppressed people.

To me, supporting Israel’s creation and continued existence is as meaningful as helping elect Obama.

I’m not alone. Check the polls.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

The PP seemed to think that believing Israel should never have been created is morally equivalent to accepting the Hamas attack of 10/. I'm not alone in believing the first point (bad idea to create Israel) and being horrified by the second (Hamas attack excusable). Motives certainly matter, but not everyone is going to agree that all six of the PP's points must be held as articles of faith if their views about a ceasefire and humanitarian aid are to be taken seriously. One can't undercut the purity of their desire to help Gazan civilians, especially children, by conflating their humanity with terrorism. It's disappointing that this link is so often made and used to give Israel carte blanche to commit a massive massacre.

The position that Israel should not exist cannot be separated from support for 80 years of efforts to annihilate it.

It’s like supporting “separate but equal” but claiming not to be a racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

I agree. Motives matter a great deal.

What is Israel's motive right now? They aren't making Gaza more safe or saving any hostages.

What is the motive of people claiming the most minor sympathy towards Palestinians as anti-Semitism?

What is Azazel and Ben-Gvir's motive?

What is Bibi's motive?

Their motive seems crystal clear to me: To liquidate Hamas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The existence or the creation of Israel only means something to Jews. There is nothing in the founding or continuing existence of Israel for the 97% of non Jews in the US. Let’s face it the 97% number has a lot of people who would have to convert to judaism as defined by the state of Israel to actually immigrate.

So when people say oh so and so does not believe Israel should have been created or does not think Israel should exist, you have to remember 97% of Americans have no attachment or stake in Israel. It is not a persuasive argument.

Simply not true.

I’m not Jewish and view the creation of Israel as a tremendous accomplishment in bringing justice to a historically oppressed people.

To me, supporting Israel’s creation and continued existence is as meaningful as helping elect Obama.

I’m not alone. Check the polls.

That’s very noble of you.

However I think if it was created in your own homeland and then you were forced to leave while your children and grandchildren and your great grandchildren were continuously oppressed, you would feel differently.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The existence or the creation of Israel only means something to Jews. There is nothing in the founding or continuing existence of Israel for the 97% of non Jews in the US. Let’s face it the 97% number has a lot of people who would have to convert to judaism as defined by the state of Israel to actually immigrate.

So when people say oh so and so does not believe Israel should have been created or does not think Israel should exist, you have to remember 97% of Americans have no attachment or stake in Israel. It is not a persuasive argument.

But that 97% is also entitled to an opinion. You don't have to be Jewish to agree or disagree that your country should support Israel through your taxes or through vetoing anti-Israel UN resolutions or through saber rattling whenever Israel is threatened. Even if the USA stops giving Israel billions of dollars each year and ceases to offer political and military support for Israel, the stability of the Middle East remains consequential to Americans. Because of this, all Americans, Jewish or not, have some investment in Israel's existence.

Many Jewish people, including some secular and some ultra-Orthodox Jews, do not believe Israel should have been created or should continue to exist. There is a lot of diversity within that 3%.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

The PP seemed to think that believing Israel should never have been created is morally equivalent to accepting the Hamas attack of 10/. I'm not alone in believing the first point (bad idea to create Israel) and being horrified by the second (Hamas attack excusable). Motives certainly matter, but not everyone is going to agree that all six of the PP's points must be held as articles of faith if their views about a ceasefire and humanitarian aid are to be taken seriously. One can't undercut the purity of their desire to help Gazan civilians, especially children, by conflating their humanity with terrorism. It's disappointing that this link is so often made and used to give Israel carte blanche to commit a massive massacre.

The position that Israel should not exist cannot be separated from support for 80 years of efforts to annihilate it.

It’s like supporting “separate but equal” but claiming not to be a racist.

The metaphor of "separate but equal" just falls apart here on so many levels. In the current situation, we have people who say they support "separate but equal" while claiming not to be racist. They claim Palestinians can live separately but equally in the West Bank, and they're so equal that Israeli settlers can harass them with impunity, vandalize their homes, murder them, steal their property, and squat on their land in violation of international law. They're so equal that they can be abducted and detained indefinitely without trial. They have limited access to justice in Israeli courts. Arab Israelis face structural discrimination. One of the forms of anti-Palestinian discrimination is that it is extremely difficult for Palestinians from the WB and Gaza to get residency in Israel if they marry Israeli citizens. This law is intended to minimize the Arab/Palestinian population of Israel so that it can remain an ethno-supremacist state.

Ending Israel's existence in its current incarnation and replacing it with one state in which Palestinians are truly "equal but not separate" would just be a natural evolutionary progression toward a more just, less racist world. South Africa was not "annihilated" when it ceased to be a white supremacist, apartheid nation. Northern Ireland was not "annihilated" when an agreement was reached that was democratic and not rigidly pro-UK. Men were not "annihilated" when women gained equal rights.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

I agree. Motives matter a great deal.

What is Israel's motive right now? They aren't making Gaza more safe or saving any hostages.

What is the motive of people claiming the most minor sympathy towards Palestinians as anti-Semitism?

What is Azazel and Ben-Gvir's motive?

What is Bibi's motive?

Their motive seems crystal clear to me: To liquidate Hamas.

They’ve made sure Hamas is liquid alright. To the tune of 4 billion dollars.

Qatar was MAD at Hamas in 2018 and ready to cut them off permanently before Israel convinced them not to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

The PP seemed to think that believing Israel should never have been created is morally equivalent to accepting the Hamas attack of 10/. I'm not alone in believing the first point (bad idea to create Israel) and being horrified by the second (Hamas attack excusable). Motives certainly matter, but not everyone is going to agree that all six of the PP's points must be held as articles of faith if their views about a ceasefire and humanitarian aid are to be taken seriously. One can't undercut the purity of their desire to help Gazan civilians, especially children, by conflating their humanity with terrorism. It's disappointing that this link is so often made and used to give Israel carte blanche to commit a massive massacre.

The position that Israel should not exist cannot be separated from support for 80 years of efforts to annihilate it.

It’s like supporting “separate but equal” but claiming not to be a racist.

Arguing about the existence of Israel is so pointless.

It's there. It exists. It's not going anywhere.

It was borne out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire. Like Lebanon. Like Syria. Like Iraq. Is it perfect? No. Did every group get what they wanted? No. Ask the Kurds. Or Maronite Christians. Or the Druze. Or the Shi'a in Iraq.

But unlike the Kurds, Palestinians have had the opportunity to have their own state a gazillion times.

And they always say no and choose war and terror instead.

The entire region is sick of their garbage.

It is not surprising that the "Arab street' is absolutely silent when it comes to support for Palestinians. And that zero governments in the Middle East are lifting a finger to help Palestinians.

Palestinians have chosen poorly. And Hamas and their attacks are pretty representative of the violent, religious extremist nihilism.that they've chosen. They are ISIS - but a very weird ISIS because they are supported by Shi'a in Iran and Houthis in Yemen, the same people that brought back slavery.

I have no idea what Palestinians are doing and what their strategy is, but I'm quite confident it's not going to lead to anything good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

Is it worth it to me? What’s worth it to me is completely irrelevant since I am not an Israeli nor am I a Palestinian. In addition, my opinion and your opinion matters zilch.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

The PP seemed to think that believing Israel should never have been created is morally equivalent to accepting the Hamas attack of 10/. I'm not alone in believing the first point (bad idea to create Israel) and being horrified by the second (Hamas attack excusable). Motives certainly matter, but not everyone is going to agree that all six of the PP's points must be held as articles of faith if their views about a ceasefire and humanitarian aid are to be taken seriously. One can't undercut the purity of their desire to help Gazan civilians, especially children, by conflating their humanity with terrorism. It's disappointing that this link is so often made and used to give Israel carte blanche to commit a massive massacre.

The position that Israel should not exist cannot be separated from support for 80 years of efforts to annihilate it.

It’s like supporting “separate but equal” but claiming not to be a racist.

Beautifully put, PP.