Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

By telling the truth? Egypt warned Shin Bet directly and the IDF Wall Watchers also sounded the alarm ahead of time.

That doesn't excuse the perpetrator of the act. The perpetrator of an act is always responsible for their own actions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

Yes it seems Egypt is making fun of Israel! Time to attack and kill all the Egyptians.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Like many who have posted here, I suspect (based on my experience reading hundreds and hundreds of posts), I don’t have to support the Palestinian “side” to oppose the Israeli “side” and what’s been happening in the Middle East over the past 75 years.

There’s no burden on me. Actual facts are facts, and below are several …

This conflict didn’t begin on 10/7/2023.

Arab groups (including several states) have initiated conflict with Israel over the past 75 years, including on 10/7.

Over those 75 years, Israel has violated international laws in attacking Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc. during that timeframe, going so far as to attack U.S. naval assets and kill U.S. sailors in the process.

The Palestinian “side” has sustained casualties in this decades-long conflict that dwarf the casualties sustained by the Israeli “side”.

This decades-long conflict has directly benefitted the Zionist movement, as evidenced by the expanded footprint of the State of Israel in 2024.

Pro-Israeli lobbying in the U.S. actively seeks to influence U.S. foreign policy (and public opinion) in favor of Israel.

Those are all facts. And here are two opinions: The Palestinian leadership is horrendous. So is the Israeli leadership.

Painting everyone critical of the actions of Israel as a supporter of the other “side” is incorrect, and really, just a foolhardy attempt to disqualify their arguments that you don’t like.

What you listed is not "facts".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Like many who have posted here, I suspect (based on my experience reading hundreds and hundreds of posts), I don’t have to support the Palestinian “side” to oppose the Israeli “side” and what’s been happening in the Middle East over the past 75 years.

There’s no burden on me. Actual facts are facts, and below are several …

This conflict didn’t begin on 10/7/2023.

Arab groups (including several states) have initiated conflict with Israel over the past 75 years, including on 10/7.

Over those 75 years, Israel has violated international laws in attacking Syria, Iraq, Iran, etc. during that timeframe, going so far as to attack U.S. naval assets and kill U.S. sailors in the process.

The Palestinian “side” has sustained casualties in this decades-long conflict that dwarf the casualties sustained by the Israeli “side”.

This decades-long conflict has directly benefitted the Zionist movement, as evidenced by the expanded footprint of the State of Israel in 2024.

Pro-Israeli lobbying in the U.S. actively seeks to influence U.S. foreign policy (and public opinion) in favor of Israel.

Those are all facts. And here are two opinions: The Palestinian leadership is horrendous. So is the Israeli leadership.

Painting everyone critical of the actions of Israel as a supporter of the other “side” is incorrect, and really, just a foolhardy attempt to disqualify their arguments that you don’t like.

What you listed is not "facts".

What of that is not a fact?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

By telling the truth? Egypt warned Shin Bet directly and the IDF Wall Watchers also sounded the alarm ahead of time.

That doesn't excuse the perpetrator of the act. The perpetrator of an act is always responsible for their own actions.

OK and we knew 9/11 was coming. Does the fact we had failed intelligence - or failed to act on intelligence - mean you have to just hold up your hands and be all, dude, you win, fair and square, just come kill us all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

By telling the truth? Egypt warned Shin Bet directly and the IDF Wall Watchers also sounded the alarm ahead of time.

That doesn't excuse the perpetrator of the act. The perpetrator of an act is always responsible for their own actions.

OK and we knew 9/11 was coming. Does the fact we had failed intelligence - or failed to act on intelligence - mean you have to just hold up your hands and be all, dude, you win, fair and square, just come kill us all.

Not comparable. Israel had far better and morr specific warnings.

But no, that doesn't mean the straw man you created is true. People are always responsible for the actions they take. A statement that is just as true about Israel as it is Hamas.

Neiter Hamas nor Israel gets to claim the others actions as justification for their crimes against humanity. Both are responsible for their own actions and should be subject to a war crimes tribunal. Collective punishment, whether undertaken by Hamas or Bibi's Israel, is no bueno.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

Excellent example of how pro-Palestinian advocates are behaving. ^^^^^

By telling the truth? Egypt warned Shin Bet directly and the IDF Wall Watchers also sounded the alarm ahead of time.

That doesn't excuse the perpetrator of the act. The perpetrator of an act is always responsible for their own actions.

OK and we knew 9/11 was coming. Does the fact we had failed intelligence - or failed to act on intelligence - mean you have to just hold up your hands and be all, dude, you win, fair and square, just come kill us all.

No, but a smart society would force their leader to resign and criticize the government for letting it happen. Affairs somehow are bigger scandals worth impeachment than terror attacks apparently.

It’s the governments job to keep their people safe. If 9/11 happened under Obama or Trump, trust me, I doubt everyone would be so gracious and understanding. Bush had all the intelligence he needed to prevent 9/11 and beef up airport security. He knew that hijacked planes into buildings was a strong possibility . Incredibly, he got the highest approval ratings ever on record a month after 9/11. I was shocked.

I must have been the only one in the country furious at Bush and shocked he got away with being asleep at the wheel during his job. Any one of us would’ve been fired for such a screw up. Netanyahu will not be so lucky in Israel because I think the Israelis are smarter than the American public

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

With the intelligence they had, they may have seen 10/7 as a strategic advantage. You hear Israeli talking heads speculating about building new beach-side condos in Gaza once the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed and Israel settles the land. 10/7 may have been the excuse they wanted to move in. That could explain Israel's "Hannibal directive"-style response on 10/7, which caused hundreds of people to burn to death. There's a reason Israel has funded Hamas for years, and perhaps a reason the intelligence reports fell on deaf ears.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

By the same token, Israel has no way of knowing whether 8,000 Hamas have been killed. This is a state that wasn't able to gather enough intelligence to prevent 10/7 and bumbled its response on that day by killing hundreds of its own civilians. There's no reason to believe its intelligence services have gotten any better in the past three months. It has not rescued a single hostage and has managed to kill off a few. The only hostages actually rescued were saved by Qatar's negotiations. Apart from its consummate incompetence, Israel has lied so often that it has lost all credibility.

They actually did gather enough intelligence to know that a 10/7 event was in the works. What's worse is they just let it happen, then blamed everyone else for it.

With the intelligence they had, they may have seen 10/7 as a strategic advantage. You hear Israeli talking heads speculating about building new beach-side condos in Gaza once the Palestinians have been ethnically cleansed and Israel settles the land. 10/7 may have been the excuse they wanted to move in. That could explain Israel's "Hannibal directive"-style response on 10/7, which caused hundreds of people to burn to death. There's a reason Israel has funded Hamas for years, and perhaps a reason the intelligence reports fell on deaf ears.

A single Israeli real estate development agency created a social media ad about building beach condos in Gaza. They were EVISCERATED by the Israeli media and general public even before it hit the international press. I have family in Modi'in, near where they are based, and apparently nobody will work with the company right now because of it. It was an ugly and horrid post and I hope the entire operation goes out of business for it.

Do not think for one second that the average Israeli is sitting around waiting to get their hands on anything in Gaza. I've posted before about the disconnect between what Americans think Israelis are talking about and what Israelis are actually talking about. And right now in Israel, the only thing people are in lockstep agreement about is that the hostages need to be freed now. Other than that, there is tremendous conflict and disagreement about every aspect of this war.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

I agree. Motives matter a great deal.

What is Israel's motive right now? They aren't making Gaza more safe or saving any hostages.

What is the motive of people claiming the most minor sympathy towards Palestinians as anti-Semitism?

What is Azazel and Ben-Gvir's motive?

What is Bibi's motive?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

Yes. I hope this puts to bed the “this is just war” mantra.

I have written it before and will repeat myself.

Israel’s outsize response is fostering the next generation of hate. As a Jew, IDF actions make me feel less - not more - safe. As a human, I am horrified about the level of killing and destruction imposed by a country that knows what suffering is.

Most of my Jewish friends here in DMV feel the same way as you.

It is so wrong that anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian support for innocent civilians is dismissed as anti semitic. Real friends of Israel want her to behave in ways that are more humane and proportional and to foster long term survival for both sides. Obviously if the conflict becomes a fully Fledged regional war, most of the region supports Palestine .

That's simply not what is happening.

I completely understand and admire the motivations of those who support a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid.

However, MANY opposing Israel's actions have completely different motives and positions:

1. They argue that Israel should never have been created and/or should not exist.

2. They argue that Palestinians and the Arab were justified in attempting to annihilate Israel in 1947, and that Hamas's attacks were "understandable" or "Israel's fault", etc.

3. They argue that US support by Israel is the result of Zionist $$$ influencing US officials, media, etc., etc.

4. They deny that many Palestinians support Hamas, notwithstanding the polling.

5. They make false and/or unverifiable claims about the situation in Gaza (the hospital attack, for example).

6. They post conspiracy theories about what happened on 10/7.

We've seen hundreds (thousands?) of examples of the above on this board, at the protests, in student and far left responses to 10/7.

At this point, anyone supporting the Palestinian "side" has the burden of proving they're acting in good faith, simply b/c so many of their compatriots are clearly not.

Anyone who supports a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid is making the most ethical request possible, whatever they believe regarding points 1 through 6. The situation in Gaza is untenable, indefensible, and unconscionable, and nobody with a beating heart could possibly support its continuance. We can't just sit on our hands while children are butchered and people are sick and starving, and the humanitarian situation just gets worse and worse. Nobody who feels this way needs to prove to you that "they're acting in good faith." If you oppose a ceasefire and more humanitarian aid, you'd have to be some kind of sociopath. You'd be "acting in bad faith."

I am in favor of more humanitarian aid and a de-escalation of the military campaign.

But I also think that motives matter a great deal.

Even if I opposed school busing, I wouldn't protest with the KKK.

That's effectively what the well-intentioned protesters are doing.

It's both morally grotesque and actually undermines their cause. Fundamentally counterproductive.

The PP seemed to think that believing Israel should never have been created is morally equivalent to accepting the Hamas attack of 10/. I'm not alone in believing the first point (bad idea to create Israel) and being horrified by the second (Hamas attack excusable). Motives certainly matter, but not everyone is going to agree that all six of the PP's points must be held as articles of faith if their views about a ceasefire and humanitarian aid are to be taken seriously. One can't undercut the purity of their desire to help Gazan civilians, especially children, by conflating their humanity with terrorism. It's disappointing that this link is so often made and used to give Israel carte blanche to commit a massive massacre.

[Anonymous]

The existence or the creation of Israel only means something to Jews. There is nothing in the founding or continuing existence of Israel for the 97% of non Jews in the US. Let’s face it the 97% number has a lot of people who would have to convert to judaism as defined by the state of Israel to actually immigrate.

So when people say oh so and so does not believe Israel should have been created or does not think Israel should exist, you have to remember 97% of Americans have no attachment or stake in Israel. It is not a persuasive argument.