Ukrainian victory over Russia is inevitable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

Does not matter. Republicans are against NATO. When republicans gain control of the house and senate or any republican wins the presidency NATO will end. Also Republicans have already said they will cut support for Taiwan, pull troop from South Korea, Israel, etc.

I just do not know why they would want to increase or maintain current defenses spending. Without the foreign deployment or mission to counter the Russians, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, etc there is little need for our current force structure. The republicans will most likely reduce US military to about 20-40k with a large part of that being reservist. It is interesting how the press never ask about this.

Lol. Your chicken little routine is old. Take a deep breath and focus. This thread is about Ukraine and Russia. If you wish to talk about the PRC, Iranians, Koreans, etc please start another thread.

No it is all the same issue. You people will not even talk about what happens when you break up NATO and let Russia roll. Some how the US will keep spending the same amount on a military which will be confined to the US? We are going to keep 170,000 US military deployed outside the US? Lol where will you deploy those troops? Not in NATO countries, not in South Korea, not in Japan.

You need to start living what your are preaching. As you keep tell us, the US has no place to police or stop Russians aggression. You sure as sh%t have no authority to police this thread or anyone else.

Lol. You have me confused with someone else. NATO is completely fine. They just expanded to include the Finns. Just like with NATO, we have bilateral security treaties with Korea and Japan who are also fine. Let’s calm down and refocus the thread back on Ukraine and Russia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

Does not matter. Republicans are against NATO. When republicans gain control of the house and senate or any republican wins the presidency NATO will end. Also Republicans have already said they will cut support for Taiwan, pull troop from South Korea, Israel, etc.

I just do not know why they would want to increase or maintain current defenses spending. Without the foreign deployment or mission to counter the Russians, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, etc there is little need for our current force structure. The republicans will most likely reduce US military to about 20-40k with a large part of that being reservist. It is interesting how the press never ask about this.

Lol. Your chicken little routine is old. Take a deep breath and focus. This thread is about Ukraine and Russia. If you wish to talk about the PRC, Iranians, Koreans, etc please start another thread.

No it is all the same issue. You people will not even talk about what happens when you break up NATO and let Russia roll. Some how the US will keep spending the same amount on a military which will be confined to the US? We are going to keep 170,000 US military deployed outside the US? Lol where will you deploy those troops? Not in NATO countries, not in South Korea, not in Japan.

You need to start living what your are preaching. As you keep tell us, the US has no place to police or stop Russians aggression. You sure as sh%t have no authority to police this thread or anyone else.

Lol. You have me confused with someone else. NATO is completely fine. They just expanded to include the Finns. Just like with NATO, we have bilateral security treaties with Korea and Japan who are also fine. Let’s calm down and refocus the thread back on Ukraine and Russia.

Can we stop using the distorted frame of "NATO expanded"? NATO is not an expansionary organization. Countries have to come to NATO, ask to be admitted and complete an application process and subject their application to the consensus decision of NATO allies. The Finns and the Swedes voluntarily applied to be NATO members when they felt threatened by Russia's expansion into Ukraine and Belarus - one by military invasion and one by authoritarian cooperation. The Finns have a long history of conflict with expansionary USSR/Russia. They had chosen to go it alone for decades because they had a history of fighting the USSR and winning. Plus all Finnish men are subject to conscription (women can serve voluntarily). They have a military reserve of 850K. The Swedes re-introduced military conscription in 2018 (as a response to the 2014 partial invasion of Ukraine by Russia). Although Sweden has partnered with NATO through Partnership for Peace, a minority of Swedes supported full NATO membership until the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, but by May 2022 (a mere 3 months after the beginning of the Russian invasion), 58% of Swedes supported full NATO membership.

Basically, the same fears that prompted Finland and Sweden to apply for membership, also animated the earlier application of all of the countries in Europe that were former Soviet republics or Warsaw Pact members.

NATO has an "open door policy" under Article 10 - any country that wants to apply to NATO, goes through the process to demonstrate and ability and willingness to commit to the obligations of membership to create security in the Euro-Atlantic region and is accepted via consensus of the NATO countries can be a member. NATO policy is that no 3rd country outside of the NATO allies can determine who can and cannot be an alliance member. NATO is a defensive alliance that does not "expand" in an imperialistic sense, but rather "enlarges" through democratic processes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

Does not matter. Republicans are against NATO. When republicans gain control of the house and senate or any republican wins the presidency NATO will end. Also Republicans have already said they will cut support for Taiwan, pull troop from South Korea, Israel, etc.

I just do not know why they would want to increase or maintain current defenses spending. Without the foreign deployment or mission to counter the Russians, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, etc there is little need for our current force structure. The republicans will most likely reduce US military to about 20-40k with a large part of that being reservist. It is interesting how the press never ask about this.

Lol. Your chicken little routine is old. Take a deep breath and focus. This thread is about Ukraine and Russia. If you wish to talk about the PRC, Iranians, Koreans, etc please start another thread.

No it is all the same issue. You people will not even talk about what happens when you break up NATO and let Russia roll. Some how the US will keep spending the same amount on a military which will be confined to the US? We are going to keep 170,000 US military deployed outside the US? Lol where will you deploy those troops? Not in NATO countries, not in South Korea, not in Japan.

You need to start living what your are preaching. As you keep tell us, the US has no place to police or stop Russians aggression. You sure as sh%t have no authority to police this thread or anyone else.

Lol. You have me confused with someone else. NATO is completely fine. They just expanded to include the Finns. Just like with NATO, we have bilateral security treaties with Korea and Japan who are also fine. Let’s calm down and refocus the thread back on Ukraine and Russia.

Can we stop using the distorted frame of "NATO expanded"? NATO is not an expansionary organization. Countries have to come to NATO, ask to be admitted and complete an application process and subject their application to the consensus decision of NATO allies. The Finns and the Swedes voluntarily applied to be NATO members when they felt threatened by Russia's expansion into Ukraine and Belarus - one by military invasion and one by authoritarian cooperation. The Finns have a long history of conflict with expansionary USSR/Russia. They had chosen to go it alone for decades because they had a history of fighting the USSR and winning. Plus all Finnish men are subject to conscription (women can serve voluntarily). They have a military reserve of 850K. The Swedes re-introduced military conscription in 2018 (as a response to the 2014 partial invasion of Ukraine by Russia). Although Sweden has partnered with NATO through Partnership for Peace, a minority of Swedes supported full NATO membership until the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, but by May 2022 (a mere 3 months after the beginning of the Russian invasion), 58% of Swedes supported full NATO membership.

Basically, the same fears that prompted Finland and Sweden to apply for membership, also animated the earlier application of all of the countries in Europe that were former Soviet republics or Warsaw Pact members.

NATO has an "open door policy" under Article 10 - any country that wants to apply to NATO, goes through the process to demonstrate and ability and willingness to commit to the obligations of membership to create security in the Euro-Atlantic region and is accepted via consensus of the NATO countries can be a member. NATO policy is that no 3rd country outside of the NATO allies can determine who can and cannot be an alliance member. NATO is a defensive alliance that does not "expand" in an imperialistic sense, but rather "enlarges" through democratic processes.

Finland and Sweden are perfect fits for NATO and will definitely be valued members in the collective defense of Europe.

[Anonymous]

Back to Ukraine:

Here's a leak of AFU losses in September:


That is in no way sustainable and Western donors can't replace losses at that rate.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/04/europe/uk-nato-ukraine-war-ammunition-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

Russia, meanwhile smells the weakness and has started talking more and more about occupying Odessa and other "historical" parts of Russia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back to Ukraine:

Here's a leak of AFU losses in September:


That is in no way sustainable and Western donors can't replace losses at that rate.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/04/europe/uk-nato-ukraine-war-ammunition-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

Russia, meanwhile smells the weakness and has started talking more and more about occupying Odessa and other "historical" parts of Russia.

Odessa? LOL, GMAFB. They should probably focus on making Crimea viable again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

[Anonymous]

[quote=Anonymous

I don't know if Ukraine is going to get back all of Donbas and Crimea. Think Crimea is easier. But what I do know is that Ukrainians stood on the fault line with Russia. And with Western support, they fought hard, preserved their country, and allowed the rest of Europe to enjoy their democracies and their freedoms. We owe Ukrainians a lot.



The rest of Europe was in no danger whatsoever. Ukraine is fighting for itself, not to let the French enjoy their croissants unmolested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

There is a reason why European countries that formerly sought be neutral between EU/West and Russia have clamored to join NATO since this illegal Ukraine War. People have realized Russia is actually a grave threat to Western democracy and the rule of law.

But by all means continue to espouse Putin’s lies and misrepresentations about the clearly Necessary defense alliance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

There is a reason why European countries that formerly sought be neutral between EU/West and Russia have clamored to join NATO since this illegal Ukraine War. People have realized Russia is actually a grave threat to Western democracy and the rule of law.

But by all means continue to espouse Putin’s lies and misrepresentations about the clearly Necessary defense alliance.

NP. NATO is necessary to defend Europe. No one with any credibility argues otherwise.
Not sure why we are talking about this on a thread about Ukraine and Russia though.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

Does not matter. Republicans are against NATO. When republicans gain control of the house and senate or any republican wins the presidency NATO will end. Also Republicans have already said they will cut support for Taiwan, pull troop from South Korea, Israel, etc.

I just do not know why they would want to increase or maintain current defenses spending. Without the foreign deployment or mission to counter the Russians, Chinese, Iran, North Korea, etc there is little need for our current force structure. The republicans will most likely reduce US military to about 20-40k with a large part of that being reservist. It is interesting how the press never ask about this.

Lol. Your chicken little routine is old. Take a deep breath and focus. This thread is about Ukraine and Russia. If you wish to talk about the PRC, Iranians, Koreans, etc please start another thread.

No it is all the same issue. You people will not even talk about what happens when you break up NATO and let Russia roll. Some how the US will keep spending the same amount on a military which will be confined to the US? We are going to keep 170,000 US military deployed outside the US? Lol where will you deploy those troops? Not in NATO countries, not in South Korea, not in Japan.

You need to start living what your are preaching. As you keep tell us, the US has no place to police or stop Russians aggression. You sure as sh%t have no authority to police this thread or anyone else.

Lol. You have me confused with someone else. NATO is completely fine. They just expanded to include the Finns. Just like with NATO, we have bilateral security treaties with Korea and Japan who are also fine. Let’s calm down and refocus the thread back on Ukraine and Russia.

Can we stop using the distorted frame of "NATO expanded"? NATO is not an expansionary organization. Countries have to come to NATO, ask to be admitted and complete an application process and subject their application to the consensus decision of NATO allies. The Finns and the Swedes voluntarily applied to be NATO members when they felt threatened by Russia's expansion into Ukraine and Belarus - one by military invasion and one by authoritarian cooperation. The Finns have a long history of conflict with expansionary USSR/Russia. They had chosen to go it alone for decades because they had a history of fighting the USSR and winning. Plus all Finnish men are subject to conscription (women can serve voluntarily). They have a military reserve of 850K. The Swedes re-introduced military conscription in 2018 (as a response to the 2014 partial invasion of Ukraine by Russia). Although Sweden has partnered with NATO through Partnership for Peace, a minority of Swedes supported full NATO membership until the 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine by Russia, but by May 2022 (a mere 3 months after the beginning of the Russian invasion), 58% of Swedes supported full NATO membership.

Basically, the same fears that prompted Finland and Sweden to apply for membership, also animated the earlier application of all of the countries in Europe that were former Soviet republics or Warsaw Pact members.

NATO has an "open door policy" under Article 10 - any country that wants to apply to NATO, goes through the process to demonstrate and ability and willingness to commit to the obligations of membership to create security in the Euro-Atlantic region and is accepted via consensus of the NATO countries can be a member. NATO policy is that no 3rd country outside of the NATO allies can determine who can and cannot be an alliance member. NATO is a defensive alliance that does not "expand" in an imperialistic sense, but rather "enlarges" through democratic processes.

Exactly.
Countries join NATO with smiles, friendship, open arms and common goals.
Countries join Russia at gunpoint, against their will, with fake referenda and rolling tanks.
HUGE difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

There is a reason why European countries that formerly sought be neutral between EU/West and Russia have clamored to join NATO since this illegal Ukraine War. People have realized Russia is actually a grave threat to Western democracy and the rule of law.

But by all means continue to espouse Putin’s lies and misrepresentations about the clearly Necessary defense alliance.

The rule of law has never meant anything to any country that wants to do something and has the means to do it. That includes every NATO member country. Stop saying "the rule of law" like it means anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Back to Ukraine:

Here's a leak of AFU losses in September:


That is in no way sustainable and Western donors can't replace losses at that rate.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/04/europe/uk-nato-ukraine-war-ammunition-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

Russia, meanwhile smells the weakness and has started talking more and more about occupying Odessa and other "historical" parts of Russia.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's not a "leak" - it's made-up Russian propaganda. Sorry but the giveaway was "Zaporozhye" - Ukraine would not write it that way.

[Anonymous]

@infantmilitario on telegram: Confirmed Russian disinfo channel.

https://www.newgeopolitics.org/2022/02/26/russian-disinformation-propaganda-ramp-up-as-conflict-in-ukraine-grows/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

There is a reason why European countries that formerly sought be neutral between EU/West and Russia have clamored to join NATO since this illegal Ukraine War. People have realized Russia is actually a grave threat to Western democracy and the rule of law.

But by all means continue to espouse Putin’s lies and misrepresentations about the clearly Necessary defense alliance.

NP. NATO is necessary to defend Europe. No one with any credibility argues otherwise.
Not sure why we are talking about this on a thread about Ukraine and Russia though.

You lack credibility to contend that Ukraine and Russia can be discussed without discussing NATO and Europe. Clue/ this is how Putin justifies his illegal war.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While our trolls talk about imaginings of "tapping out" Ukraine continues to advance, destroy Russian equipment, and reclaim their land from the Russian invaders.

Ignore the Russian trolls. Putin’s bloodthirsty invasion of Ukraine will never be accepted by Freedom loving people of the world. Ukraine is fighting for our values.

Slava Ukraine! Slava Biden! Slava Freedom!

Naaah. Ukraine is justly fighting to repel an invasion. NATO and European nations are quite capable of fighting for themselves, thank you very much. If it was as you said, no one would rely on Ukraine to defend them. They would do it themselves and it would be over in an instant.

You would make Neville Chamberlain proud. “Peace in our time” yes?

Do you think Putin will stop at Ukraine? Emboldened by MAGA and MAGA-adjacent allies in Europe, Putin is seeking to recreate the Russian Empire.

Ever hear of the Domino Effect?

Ukraine is the tip of the spear defending Democracy from tyranny.

Putin isn’t going to war with NATO. Stop the fear mongering.
We once used the phrase domino effect. Bit us in the ass.
Ukraine is the tip of its own spear, as it should be. They’ve done an admirable job too. But no one is trusting their security to Ukraine, otherwise we’d already be at war.
Your hyperbole is way over the top.

In point of fact, the immediate demand before attacking Ukraine was that NATO retreat from Eastern European countries and permanently block Ukraine from joining NATO. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/26/us/politics/russia-demands-us-ukraine.html

Yes this is 100% about NATO

Perhaps you should ask if NATO is actually beneficial at this point. If the whole purpose of NATO is to oppose Russia, and NATO expands to Russia's borders, then we create a recipe for conflict. NATO's existence after the end of the Cold War has been a mistake.

The worst part is that NATO is fundamentally unfit for fighting Russia. Too many decades playing in the desert and shipping off its industrial base will do that. NATO is careening towards a conflict that could end the American Empire and NATO in one collosal blunder.

NATO exists to collectively defend its members. It’s done this well. There’s no reason to question the organization because it refuses to involve itself in a war outside of its treaty requirements.

I struggle to think of an example when NATO has collectively defended its member. Not a fake threat across the ocean for its own political gains, but an actual threat to its member.

They haven't had to. That is the whole point.

Do people really not know any history? Article 5 - the mutual self-defense article of the NATO treaty has been invoked only once - after 9/11, in order to come to the mutual defense of the United States.

NATO members committed to do 8 specific things at the request of the United States - things like intelligence sharing, increasing security at US facilities on Allied territory, providing overflight clearance for terrorism operations, etc, and agreed to be ready to deploy NATO Airborne Early Warning Systems and naval forces.

More here - https://www.nato.int/docu/speech/2001/s011004b.htm

FWIW, NATO has also played a critical role in the Balkans, by providing support to the SFOR peacekeeping post-Dayton Peace Accords, and ending the war in Kosovo and providing troops for the KFOR peacekeeping mission.

Even today, as extreme nationalist Serb forces tied to Vucic (formerly a Milosevic protege and current President of Serbia) attack Kosovar police forces in northern Kosovo in an attempt to increase broader conflict, NATO has stepped in with additional British NATO forces to keep the peace.

The involvement of NATO in peacekeeping forces[b] in the Balkans was seen at the time as a kind of defense of Europe since fighting spread over time and created huge, destabilizing refugee flows into the rest of Europe.

It's unbelievable and horrifying to me that so many people seem largely unaware of the benefits of NATO. (Not to mention such factually incorrect history on the creation and evolution of NATO until today.

🤯

You know perfectly well what happened after 9/11 wasn't about protecting the United States. Bush wanted to invade something, and NATO made it happen and look kosher.

DP

No we don’t know that and you mischaracterized NATO’s involvement.


[b]Has NATO ever started a war? - History Stack Exchange

NATO's operations were focussed on anti-terror and enforce blockades or no-fly zones on specific nations and providing humanitarian assistance. The operations were responses to actions by other nations but not started by NATO itself therefore NATO hasn't started any wars.Mar 1, 2022
https://history.stackexchange.com › ...


What was the role of NATO in the Iraq war?

The March 2003 campaign against Iraq was conducted by a coalition of forces from different countries, some of which were NATO member countries and some were not. NATO as an organization had no role in the decision to undertake the campaign or to conduct it.May 19, 2022

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_51977.htm#:~:text=The%20March%202003%20campaign%20against,campaign%20or%20to%20conduct%20it.


From 2004 to 2011, NATO conducted a relatively small but important support operation in Iraq that consisted of training, mentoring and assisting the Iraqi security forces.May 24, 2023
https://www.nato.int › topics_166936
Topic: NATO Mission Iraq


NATO and Afghanistan

For nearly 20 years, NATO Allies and partner countries had military forces deployed to Afghanistan under a United Nations (UN) Security Council mandate. NATO Allies went into Afghanistan after the 9/11 terrorist attacks on the United States, to ensure that the country would not again become a safe haven for international terrorists to attack NATO member countries. Over the last two decades, there have been no terrorist attacks on Allied soil from Afghanistan.

In February 2020, the United States and the Taliban signed an agreement on the withdrawal of international forces from Afghanistan by May 2021. In April 2021, NATO Foreign and Defence ministers decided to withdraw all Allied troops from Afghanistan within a few months.

In summer 2021, following the collapse of the Afghan government and the Afghan National Defence and Security Forces, NATO focused on ensuring the safe departure of personnel from Allied and partner countries, and NATO-affiliated Afghans. In August 2021, more than 120,000 people were evacuated in the Allied airlift from Kabul airport as part of the coalition effort – including around 2,000 Afghans working for NATO, and their families. Many of them have already been resettled in Allied and partner countries. For several others, NATO is working with Allies to provide housing, care and support while arrangements are made for follow-on movement to Allied and partner countries. 


https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_8189.htm

LOL by all means, let NATO tell its own story, it's not like they are biased at all.

There is a reason why European countries that formerly sought be neutral between EU/West and Russia have clamored to join NATO since this illegal Ukraine War. People have realized Russia is actually a grave threat to Western democracy and the rule of law.

But by all means continue to espouse Putin’s lies and misrepresentations about the clearly Necessary defense alliance.

The rule of law has never meant anything to any country that wants to do something and has the means to do it. That includes every NATO member country. Stop saying "the rule of law" like it means anything.

Please link to any credible source that believes that Putin’s illegal war and other illegal annexations of foreign territories were legal.