"Opening up" means risking your life

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What do you mean when you say testing to identify those who are positive. Get specific what does that mean? It should be assumed if you have symptoms you are positive that doesn't require a test ties into contact tracing

Contact tracing is being done to limit outbreaks in most of the United States and has been going on since day one. That doesn't require a test 14 day quarantine if you have been exposed to someone with symptoms.

PPE is a mask and social distancing for most folks unless you are a medical professional

Guess what this is exactly what SK and Germany area doing

So again for the last time Jeff what is your point on testing besides the fact that you are a partisan democrat and that's their current talking point testing testing testing.

No one is quarantining for 14 days after contact based on symptoms alone!! That would be absolutely insane...and result in a situation no different than we're in now. Are you seriously arguing that the "re-opening" policy should be that anytime a person is near someone who coughs, they should quarantine for 14 days? Because that's what you are describing.

SK and Germany have much higher rates of testing than we do...so I have no idea WTF you are prattling on about WRT testing being some kind of Democratic talking point. Testing on a broader scale than what we have is a critical part of any re-opening strategy...everyone from the Heritage Foundation to Bernie Sanders agrees with this.

If you want to limit the spread of the virus, then yes, if you have had first degree contact with someone known to be positive, then you too should quarantine for 14 days so as to ensure the virus dies with you and you don't spread it more.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

There are two types of tests that we need. The first is to identify who is currently infectious. They can be symptomatic or asymptomatic. You don't seem to care about the asymptomatic though they can actually more important to identify. These should be prioritized towards front line workers such as healthcare providers, grocery store employees, and other essential workers. As tests become wider spread and easier to conduct, the circle of who gets tested can widen. We probably will never get to -- no actually need to -- test everyone. But, there should be enough random testing to sample populations and identify outbreaks early. The second test is for antibodies to see who has had the virus and may have some amount of immunity. Those individuals can obviously be a bit more open though we still need to confirm how much immunity is achieved.

PPE may be a mask but I'll take the advice of medical professionals. More than that may be required. Equally important is the transition to socially distant workplaces. The "open floor plan" office environment is probably going to have to go. Same as cube farms. Maybe a lot of this can continue as teleworking. We won't be able to have workers situation cheek by jowl anymore.

I have little concern about what SK and Germany are doing. I am concerned about what we are doing and we are not doing enough. That is not a Democratic talking point, but one espoused just this morning by Republican Governor Hogan.

I posted up thread a tweet that shows an analysis of how AC spread the virus from one part of a room to another. our whole build environment is going to need to be re-thought.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I worry about the risks of opening too soon and certainly opening without widespread testing available and in play.

At the same time, I’m really worried about the impact of prolonged quarantine on communities already struggling. There’s a public health effect of the financial devastation. And I worry that it may tip the scales for people to either reopen prematurely and/or favor Trump and his “return to work” message - hurting the people who are most vulnerable all around (economically and health wise).

This article from WaPo does a good job describing challenges that many of us in the DC area don’t experience bc we are buffered by federal employment and affluence (though I know working and middle class families are certainly suffering in this area too).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/first-the-coronavirus-pandemic-took-their-jobs-then-it-wiped-out-their-health-insurance/2020/04/18/1c2cb5bc-7d7c-11ea-8013-1b6da0e4a2b7_story.html

If you think Team Trump actually gaf about marginalized communities in DC, I have a bridge to sell you.

Of course he doesn’t. But Democrats need to be strong in their messages - nor more than ever - about their future vision of returning to work (even if it’s on the basis of laying out conditions like testing).

[Anonymous]

How much are you making on ad dollars, as you tell us to suck it up and earn zero?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How much are you making on ad dollars, as you tell us to suck it up and earn zero?

He pulled himself up by his bootstraps and created income out of an email newsletter. He is the prototypical entrepeneur that GOP used to extol.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:How much are you making on ad dollars, as you tell us to suck it up and earn zero?

I don't think my income is any of your business but I will tell you this. The online ad market has completely tanked. There are entire industries that have stopped advertising because they are closed and have nothing to advertise. Many online publications are going out of business already and many more will not survive. We have seen our revenue drop by 60%. Luckily, our costs are minimal so we can still survive. We have not received a penny, nor do we expect to receive a penny, from any of the government programs aimed at helping small businesses.

If I was primarily interested in my pocketbook, I would be the biggest backer of opening up that you have ever seen. It would be great for me to continue working at home while you suckers infected yourselves reviving the ad market.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What do you mean when you say testing to identify those who are positive. Get specific what does that mean? It should be assumed if you have symptoms you are positive that doesn't require a test ties into contact tracing

Contact tracing is being done to limit outbreaks in most of the United States and has been going on since day one. That doesn't require a test 14 day quarantine if you have been exposed to someone with symptoms.

PPE is a mask and social distancing for most folks unless you are a medical professional

Guess what this is exactly what SK and Germany area doing

So again for the last time Jeff what is your point on testing besides the fact that you are a partisan democrat and that's their current talking point testing testing testing.

There are two types of tests that we need. The first is to identify who is currently infectious. They can be symptomatic or asymptomatic. You don't seem to care about the asymptomatic though they can actually more important to identify. These should be prioritized towards front line workers such as healthcare providers, grocery store employees, and other essential workers. As tests become wider spread and easier to conduct, the circle of who gets tested can widen. We probably will never get to -- no actually need to -- test everyone. But, there should be enough random testing to sample populations and identify outbreaks early. The second test is for antibodies to see who has had the virus and may have some amount of immunity. Those individuals can obviously be a bit more open though we still need to confirm how much immunity is achieved.

PPE may be a mask but I'll take the advice of medical professionals. More than that may be required. Equally important is the transition to socially distant workplaces. The "open floor plan" office environment is probably going to have to go. Same as cube farms. Maybe a lot of this can continue as teleworking. We won't be able to have workers situation cheek by jowl anymore.

I have little concern about what SK and Germany are doing. I am concerned about what we are doing and we are not doing enough. That is not a Democratic talking point, but one espoused just this morning by Republican Governor Hogan.

Thanks for the response Jeff

I think the most important folks to test right now are healthcare workers and while there are some exceptions most of them are being tested. Next would be essential workers that can't social distance. We can do better there. I agree asymptomatic is a tough nut to crack. That's why it's recommend that folks wear masks when they go out. While there has been talk about people being tested before they can go out mainly in Italy no country has actually implemented that policy. On the first two points there is a middle ground to do more than we are right now (mainly for folks who can't social distance) but not as much as what you are and mainly other Ds are talking about in my view.

While there is an extreme element that wants things to go back to normal I think most of us on the open economy side understand the need for masks and social distancing. That's all layed out in phase 1 of the 3 phase reopen plan which again can and should start happening in most of the country in my view.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for the response Jeff

I think the most important folks to test right now are healthcare workers and while there are some exceptions most of them are being tested. Next would be essential workers that can't social distance. We can do better there. I agree asymptomatic is a tough nut to crack. That's why it's recommend that folks wear masks when they go out. While there has been talk about people being tested before they can go out mainly in Italy no country has actually implemented that policy. On the first two points there is a middle ground to do more than we are right now (mainly for folks who can't social distance) but not as much as what you are and mainly other Ds are talking about in my view.

While there is an extreme element that wants things to go back to normal I think most of us on the open economy side understand the need for masks and social distancing. That's all layed out in phase 1 of the 3 phase reopen plan which again can and should start happening in most of the country in my view.

Phase One includes the opening of health clubs. I really have no idea how that can be done safely. But, that's what happens when the owner of Equinox is able to get Trump on the phone. I suspect that many governors will ignore Trump's phases and implement their own guidelines.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
What do you mean when you say testing to identify those who are positive. Get specific what does that mean? It should be assumed if you have symptoms you are positive that doesn't require a test ties into contact tracing

Contact tracing is being done to limit outbreaks in most of the United States and has been going on since day one. That doesn't require a test 14 day quarantine if you have been exposed to someone with symptoms.

PPE is a mask and social distancing for most folks unless you are a medical professional

Guess what this is exactly what SK and Germany area doing

So again for the last time Jeff what is your point on testing besides the fact that you are a partisan democrat and that's their current talking point testing testing testing.

No one is quarantining for 14 days after contact based on symptoms alone!! That would be absolutely insane...and result in a situation no different than we're in now. Are you seriously arguing that the "re-opening" policy should be that anytime a person is near someone who coughs, they should quarantine for 14 days? Because that's what you are describing.

SK and Germany have much higher rates of testing than we do...so I have no idea WTF you are prattling on about WRT testing being some kind of Democratic talking point. Testing on a broader scale than what we have is a critical part of any re-opening strategy...everyone from the Heritage Foundation to Bernie Sanders agrees with this.

If you want to limit the spread of the virus, then yes, if you have had first degree contact with someone known to be positive, then you too should quarantine for 14 days so as to ensure the virus dies with you and you don't spread it more.

Agreed. But PP (maybe you) was arguing that you don't need testing...just quarantine every time you are near someone who is symptomatic, which responsibly would have to include every time someone coughed in your vicinity.

FWIW, my family started to self-quarantine almost 6w when my family came down with fevers and coughs. I got sick a few days later...and I still have significant respiratory symptoms (e.g. I get winded walking up the stairs in my house). DH has now been symptom-free for 4 days, and he went to the grocery store for the first time in over a month yesterday. This has *not* been easy for us, but it's doable because we have white-collar jobs that enable teleworking and understanding bosses. But, because we still cannot get tested despite my doctor saying I almost certainly have it, we would not qualify for many forms of economic relief if we did lose our jobs and need it.

If we are going to re-open and provide economic relief to people who need to quarantine if they have it, we need testing. It's not partisan...it's just practical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don’t think I want contact tracing, though. That’s too much. I like having my privacy and not exposing others records. Because then it seeps into other Orwellian territories.

So you wouldn't want to know if you had been in first or second degree contact with someone who was infected. Got it.

Well, the same could be said for instance, dating sites. Do I want to know if someone has an STD or AIDS? Yes.

Do I rather have the person tell me or find out via a digital stamp? Ehhhh gray area.

I think it’s more bad than good. I don’t want to become dependent on technology. What if a hacker gets into the system? It creates all sorts of long term issues.

I say no to contact tracing. Sorry not sorry.

[Anonymous]

The perspective from the DC area, where so many upper middle class or wealthy people are snug in their home offices, teleworking or the like, accepting contactless deliveries from people who are nameless and faceless to them, may not be the best overall reference point from assessing economic pain of others. Try as many do to understand other people’s economic situations or jobs, it’s not easy to do. I am not advocating for reopening anything until appropriate because ... dead people can’t work. But the situation is really highlighting the grotesque economic inequality in this country. Bernie had the answers but that didn’t happen.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for the response Jeff

I think the most important folks to test right now are healthcare workers and while there are some exceptions most of them are being tested. Next would be essential workers that can't social distance. We can do better there. I agree asymptomatic is a tough nut to crack. That's why it's recommend that folks wear masks when they go out. While there has been talk about people being tested before they can go out mainly in Italy no country has actually implemented that policy. On the first two points there is a middle ground to do more than we are right now (mainly for folks who can't social distance) but not as much as what you are and mainly other Ds are talking about in my view.

While there is an extreme element that wants things to go back to normal I think most of us on the open economy side understand the need for masks and social distancing. That's all layed out in phase 1 of the 3 phase reopen plan which again can and should start happening in most of the country in my view.

Phase One includes the opening of health clubs. I really have no idea how that can be done safely. But, that's what happens when the owner of Equinox is able to get Trump on the phone. I suspect that many governors will ignore Trump's phases and implement their own guidelines.

Gyms already have a ton of alcoholic based wipes. You’re supposed to wipe it down each time you use it. So the guidance is there. It’s just not enforced.


As long as it’s enforced, I see no issue to reopen the gyms.

(Of course my post is selfish because I REALLY miss my gym)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for the response Jeff

I think the most important folks to test right now are healthcare workers and while there are some exceptions most of them are being tested. Next would be essential workers that can't social distance. We can do better there. I agree asymptomatic is a tough nut to crack. That's why it's recommend that folks wear masks when they go out. While there has been talk about people being tested before they can go out mainly in Italy no country has actually implemented that policy. On the first two points there is a middle ground to do more than we are right now (mainly for folks who can't social distance) but not as much as what you are and mainly other Ds are talking about in my view.

While there is an extreme element that wants things to go back to normal I think most of us on the open economy side understand the need for masks and social distancing. That's all layed out in phase 1 of the 3 phase reopen plan which again can and should start happening in most of the country in my view.

Phase One includes the opening of health clubs. I really have no idea how that can be done safely. But, that's what happens when the owner of Equinox is able to get Trump on the phone. I suspect that many governors will ignore Trump's phases and implement their own guidelines.

Gyms already have a ton of alcoholic based wipes. You’re supposed to wipe it down each time you use it. So the guidance is there. It’s just not enforced.


As long as it’s enforced, I see no issue to reopen the gyms.

(Of course my post is selfish because I REALLY miss my gym)

It’s not just wiping down, but droplets from people panting everywhere. All the equipment would have to be 6 ft apart. Even then, it seems nuts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I don’t think I want contact tracing, though. That’s too much. I like having my privacy and not exposing others records. Because then it seeps into other Orwellian territories.

So you wouldn't want to know if you had been in first or second degree contact with someone who was infected. Got it.

Well, the same could be said for instance, dating sites. Do I want to know if someone has an STD or AIDS? Yes.

Do I rather have the person tell me or find out via a digital stamp? Ehhhh gray area.

I think it’s more bad than good. I don’t want to become dependent on technology. What if a hacker gets into the system? It creates all sorts of long term issues.

I say no to contact tracing. Sorry not sorry.

You might say no, but it already happens. But if you want to opt out of knowing if you might have been exposed and might pose a risk to your loved one, that is your choice. Just stay away from me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Thanks for the response Jeff

I think the most important folks to test right now are healthcare workers and while there are some exceptions most of them are being tested. Next would be essential workers that can't social distance. We can do better there. I agree asymptomatic is a tough nut to crack. That's why it's recommend that folks wear masks when they go out. While there has been talk about people being tested before they can go out mainly in Italy no country has actually implemented that policy. On the first two points there is a middle ground to do more than we are right now (mainly for folks who can't social distance) but not as much as what you are and mainly other Ds are talking about in my view.

While there is an extreme element that wants things to go back to normal I think most of us on the open economy side understand the need for masks and social distancing. That's all layed out in phase 1 of the 3 phase reopen plan which again can and should start happening in most of the country in my view.

Phase One includes the opening of health clubs. I really have no idea how that can be done safely. But, that's what happens when the owner of Equinox is able to get Trump on the phone. I suspect that many governors will ignore Trump's phases and implement their own guidelines.

Gyms already have a ton of alcoholic based wipes. You’re supposed to wipe it down each time you use it. So the guidance is there. It’s just not enforced.


As long as it’s enforced, I see no issue to reopen the gyms.

(Of course my post is selfish because I REALLY miss my gym)

I guess at least half of gym customers won't be back until there is a vaccine. This will be very hard on them whether they are allowed to open up again or not. Gyms are just too communal for safety.