Boys 2028 mess - considerations and solutions.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Rec lacrosse participation is down about 45% from peak in NoVa. I would guess something similar in DMV MD, as I know it's similar in Baltimore.
It's not first tremors and fewer babies doesn't begin to account for it, school sizes haven't changed around here. JV programs have been scrapped in many schools over the last several years. 7 on 7 games. JVs that are filled are now more often with 1st time players.
You are correct that specialization is a corollary, Johnnie is playing club and travelling everywhere, and not bringing his 3-5 buddies into the sport.

Where did you get the 45% number from? Is it 45% less players or teams?

I know the number was 5,400 @ a year in the past. Don't even know if that was the high water mark. Now, there are 149 teams. Estimate 20 kids per team or come with your own number.

Our own area's rec team is down more than that.

1) Where does the 5400 number come from?
2) Generally doesn't include the inhouse leagues run by several entities like Arlington and Alexandria and other entities.
3) are some youth players playing in ML, STJ and the likes scooper programs that could be playing for the respective counties.

1) A conversation with the head of NVYLL.
2) and 3) Not aware of numbers or how that affects an area's rec programs. I know Arl, Alex still have teams in NVYLL.

There are probably more players doing club and no rec, but in toto you're talking about 2,400 boys short, 120 teams worth, and any answer for where some other players may be will fall well short of that.

Which is why, thread topic, there are fewer players at the high schools. Not all of them, but quite a few and without taking a poll probably the majority. Lacrosse is not special here, some other sports are feeling it, too. But it used to be a growth sport, one of the few. Now mature areas are bleeding even as growth spots in less dense playing areas are expanding some.

was that discussion just boys or girls and boys?

It was just boys. Why am I being prompted with unending questions?

Because using your math of 20 boys per team, you're claiming that NVYLL once had around 270 teams playing in a single spring season. 4 age groups (14U, 12U, 10U, 8U) with 5 divisions (A, B, C, ect) per age group and you would have 13 teams per division. Having been around Nova lacrosse for close to 40 years now, there has never been a time I can remember that NVYLL or its predecessors came anywhere near that size of participation.

Lacrosse has been pretty predictable in this area. The growth was mainly from the suburban spread west to Loudoun county. The best area players still end up playing in the IAC/WCAC. Nova area public schools will place 3-12 kids in D1 programs. The claims of lacrosse dying in this area becuase kids don't play NVYLL is overblown. Lacrosse will be fine...right up until the House Settlement is finalized and the future of all non revenue sports at the D1 level comes into better focus.

Thank you for eloquently stating my issues with the PPs position. Given this alleged conversation was with thr NVYLL director, I summerise that alleged 5400 kids comprises both girls and boys.and not just boys.

Can there be issues, sure. But my anecdotal evidence hasn't shown this and I've had kids I NVYLL programs for 10+ years.

I like how you threw alleged in there. The conversation was centered around the dropoff in rec, was one of 2 subjects of discussion at the very beginning of the club encroachment to spring. It was already happening. Which has only gotten worse since. But thanks for the summary on a conversation you weren't actually at.

Ask a high school coach that's been there awhile and isn't fed by Vienna or Dulles South how it's going. Actually, you can ask a DS hs coach because now it's the same numbers or less for twice as many schools and population.

It I'd alleged because you are living in fantasyland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rec lacrosse participation is down about 45% from peak in NoVa. I would guess something similar in DMV MD, as I know it's similar in Baltimore.
It's not first tremors and fewer babies doesn't begin to account for it, school sizes haven't changed around here. JV programs have been scrapped in many schools over the last several years. 7 on 7 games. JVs that are filled are now more often with 1st time players.
You are correct that specialization is a corollary, Johnnie is playing club and travelling everywhere, and not bringing his 3-5 buddies into the sport.

Where did you get the 45% number from? Is it 45% less players or teams?

I know the number was 5,400 @ a year in the past. Don't even know if that was the high water mark. Now, there are 149 teams. Estimate 20 kids per team or come with your own number.

Our own area's rec team is down more than that.

1) Where does the 5400 number come from?
2) Generally doesn't include the inhouse leagues run by several entities like Arlington and Alexandria and other entities.
3) are some youth players playing in ML, STJ and the likes scooper programs that could be playing for the respective counties.

1) A conversation with the head of NVYLL.
2) and 3) Not aware of numbers or how that affects an area's rec programs. I know Arl, Alex still have teams in NVYLL.

There are probably more players doing club and no rec, but in toto you're talking about 2,400 boys short, 120 teams worth, and any answer for where some other players may be will fall well short of that.

Which is why, thread topic, there are fewer players at the high schools. Not all of them, but quite a few and without taking a poll probably the majority. Lacrosse is not special here, some other sports are feeling it, too. But it used to be a growth sport, one of the few. Now mature areas are bleeding even as growth spots in less dense playing areas are expanding some.

was that discussion just boys or girls and boys?

It was just boys. Why am I being prompted with unending questions?

Because using your math of 20 boys per team, you're claiming that NVYLL once had around 270 teams playing in a single spring season. 4 age groups (14U, 12U, 10U, 8U) with 5 divisions (A, B, C, ect) per age group and you would have 13 teams per division. Having been around Nova lacrosse for close to 40 years now, there has never been a time I can remember that NVYLL or its predecessors came anywhere near that size of participation.

Lacrosse has been pretty predictable in this area. The growth was mainly from the suburban spread west to Loudoun county. The best area players still end up playing in the IAC/WCAC. Nova area public schools will place 3-12 kids in D1 programs. The claims of lacrosse dying in this area becuase kids don't play NVYLL is overblown. Lacrosse will be fine...right up until the House Settlement is finalized and the future of all non revenue sports at the D1 level comes into better focus.

Thank you for eloquently stating my issues with the PPs position. Given this alleged conversation was with thr NVYLL director, I summerise that alleged 5400 kids comprises both girls and boys.and not just boys.

Can there be issues, sure. But my anecdotal evidence hasn't shown this and I've had kids I NVYLL programs for 10+ years.

I like how you threw alleged in there. The conversation was centered around the dropoff in rec, was one of 2 subjects of discussion at the very beginning of the club encroachment to spring. It was already happening. Which has only gotten worse since. But thanks for the summary on a conversation you weren't actually at.

Ask a high school coach that's been there awhile and isn't fed by Vienna or Dulles South how it's going. Actually, you can ask a DS hs coach because now it's the same numbers or less for twice as many schools and population.

It I'd alleged because you are living in fantasyland.

It I'd? Thanks, Vienna lacrosse dad.

[Anonymous]

How do you fix it?

[Anonymous]

Is this a Vienna vs Dulles South argument? My money is on Vienna...those dad's are awesomer than Dulles South dads

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How do you fix it?

Not sure, I'm going to do what I can this fall and beyond. See if I can get a handle on options. Did it once, can do it again. If anything works, will share it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

[Anonymous]

[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

Sounds like you just started following NOVA lacrosse 2 years ago.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

The issue with Loudoun is that when a school builds a program they build another school 1.5 miles away and rips any established team into . They approved a new HS to be built 1.5 miles from Independence. So that school will be pulling kids from Independence and Briar Woods.

Also a good portion of the good players, that can afford it, go to private school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

The issue with Loudoun is that when a school builds a program they build another school 1.5 miles away and rips any established team into . They approved a new HS to be built 1.5 miles from Independence. So that school will be pulling kids from Independence and Briar Woods.

Also a good portion of the good players, that can afford it, go to private school.

Agree. The weirdest part of NoVa lax is that the best 5-10% of players iare scraped off by the privates. In my experience the bottom 80% of your local NVYLL “A” team will make up the majority of the local high school’s varsity team.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

The issue with Loudoun is that when a school builds a program they build another school 1.5 miles away and rips any established team into . They approved a new HS to be built 1.5 miles from Independence. So that school will be pulling kids from Independence and Briar Woods.

Also a good portion of the good players, that can afford it, go to private school.

Honestly, a good problem. You folks have it better than probably 99.99999% public HS, tbh...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

i know this is an old comment, but my son plays lacrosse and is also a great football player. Most of the very athletic kids were playing football and couldn’t squeeze in a sunday event as that would make them 7 days a week in a high impact sport. My kid would never give up football for lacrosse in the fall. The conditioning on his football team is more valuable. He’s got lifting before school and practices after. Came back for some winter training almost unrecognizable with how much muscle he put on from that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Talking to some friends last night- it does sound like many schools are having trouble filling out their VEL teams. We maybe past peak lacrosse.

Last season there were a whopping 9 teams in NVYLL in the U14A division. Years ago there were many A divisions and kids competed and it raised the bar. That is really all you need to know and I have been around NVYLL a long time. This is something anyone can look up. This has nothing to do with NCAA rules. This is not because more kids in FL play lacrosse. This will 100% have a negative impact on kids in the class of 2028 looking to play at the next level as fewer coaches will line up to see DMV teams play at summer tournaments. There will still be some kids who are great. However, getting three kids from VHSL teams into D1 is not the norm. It will also impact d3 and d2 recruiting.
Looking at the comments on the many pages of this thread I blame the parents who seem to hate a local club that brought most of the kids to colleges at a high level and even a few to PLL. That is fine but you also did not support NVYLL. There was a system in place that worked. Play for your neighborhood club. In 7th or 8th grade if your son is a real standout, pony up for VLC/Madlax/Blackwolf and your kids will get recruited. You did not listen and this is why you cannot have nice things.

Counterpoint- I don’t think that it has anything to do with club or NVYLL at all- this week at Vel I saw relatively few club helmets at the JV level. Lots of kids with generic white helmets. I just think a lot of these kids have gotten the message unless you’re one of the fabulous 5 (Robinson, Madison, Yorktown, Langley, McLean). You’re a speed bump in NOVA 6a lax. Who wants to sign up for that?

The issue with Loudoun is that when a school builds a program they build another school 1.5 miles away and rips any established team into . They approved a new HS to be built 1.5 miles from Independence. So that school will be pulling kids from Independence and Briar Woods.

Also a good portion of the good players, that can afford it, go to private school.

That's not the issue with Loudoun. And Independence has never won anything. Not sure why you would think their example would prove squat.

[Anonymous]

Now that we’re passed winter break and preseason training he started in ernest - what are the expectations for freshman to make varsity. At my son’s high level public it looks like there is only room for 1 or 2 freshmen.

I think my son is in the running but it might be better for him to just play at JV and be a contributor rather than be a backup on V.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Now that we’re passed winter break and preseason training he started in ernest - what are the expectations for freshman to make varsity. At my son’s high level public it looks like there is only room for 1 or 2 freshmen.

I think my son is in the running but it might be better for him to just play at JV and be a contributor rather than be a backup on V.

There are no expectations for freshmen to make varsity in the general. That is entirely up to the makeup of the players available and how the coaching staff wants players to develop.

The ONLY thing that would be consistent is if any player regardless of grade is seen to be a decent sized or more contributor over other options on game day, they'll likely be pulled up. There's no such thing as "only room for 1 or 2 freshmen".

Let water find its level, it'll be fine.