Succession - Season 4

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I’m pretty rich and I don’t know anyone who got an amnio unless something came up on the earlier tests. Extra scans? Sure! But amnio has serious risks.

Wealth doesn't matter. If you're over 35 or have a problematic genetic history, amnio is recommended as a matter of course.

Is this based on personal experience? I had my first at 37 and the doctor was very much of the opinion that it was up to me. There are less invasive tests with less definitive results, most people do those first and will only do amnio if something comes up, because amnio carries a risk of miscarriage. It's as high as 1 in 100 amnios result in miscarriage -- that's extremely high! So I did not get one after earlier tests were clear (and with no history of genetic abnormalities and no flags raised on my early ultrasounds).

However, I do think wealth plays a role. There is a difference between "pretty rich" and Shiv Roy. We're talking about the richest people in the world. As I mentioned earlier, Shiv is not just going to a regular OB. She's going to doctors who only service the ultra rich, probably do a lot via house call, likely sign NDAs before working with them, etc. Shiv can afford to pay for the doctor whose done 3000 amnios and never had a bad result, so if she wants to get an amnio and be assured of the most limited risk possible, she can. She's not a Big Law attorney, she's a billionaire.

These people are not like us, any of us. And that extends to healthcare, pregnancy, risk assessment, etc. They make decisions differently than we do.

DP. Good grief, could you possibly stop fixating on the amnio? Plenty of women, including me, have had multiple amnios. It's a test that is regularly done, especially if the mother is 35+. Move on!

I'm the PP and I'm not fixating on the amnio, I'm responding to someone who asserted getting an amnio was a "matter of course" for a woman over 35, and also that money is irrelevant. I disagreed.

If anything, I'm in the same camp as you because my whole point is that Shiv getting an amnio is not necessarily evidence that she's over 35 (I don't think she is based on Kendall's age) or that she had some huge risk/concern with the pregnancy, or that she was using it to ascertain paternity. I think it's just likely that someone in Shiv's position would get all the tests because she can, does not have to worry about insurance covering it, and because it's culturally common in her tax bracket to just do all the things.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.

Genetic amniocentesis is usually done between weeks 14 and 20 of pregnancy. Amniocentesis done before week 14 of pregnancy might lead to more complications.

Reasons to consider genetic amniocentesis include:

Having positive results from a prenatal screening test. If the results of a screening test — such as the first-trimester screen or prenatal cell-free DNA screening — show high risk or are worrisome, amniocentesis might confirm or rule out a diagnosis.
Having an earlier pregnancy affected by a genetic condition. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to look for that condition.
Being 35 or older. Babies born to people 35 and older have a higher risk of chromosomal conditions, such as Down syndrome. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to rule out these conditions if prenatal cell-free DNA screening is positive.
Having a family history of a genetic condition, or if the parents are carriers of a genetic condition. Besides identifying Down syndrome, amniocentesis can be used to diagnose other genetic conditions, such as cystic fibrosis.
Having unusual ultrasound findings. A health care provider might recommend amniocentesis to diagnose or rule out genetic conditions associated with unusual ultrasound findings.

You guys are reading way too much into this. They talked about an amnio to 1) tell us shiv was pregnant, and 2) to tell us how far along she was (since it’s done later on, and they also snuck in the 20 week scan comment). That’s it. It’s not a detailed medical drama focusing on insurance claims and ICD10 codes.

Kendall has one biological son with autism (possibly more). His daughter is adopted. Shiv had the amino because she’s afraid of the baby having any type of defect.

Shiv may have had another baby with birth defects.

The doctor said there were concerns based on testing she had had. My first blood test showed a possibility of Downs. I would have needed to follow up with an amnio to determine with certainty. I elected not to, but many do. Very common.

That is such ancient maternal science though. When I had my DD 15 yrs ago they could tell from the bone in her nose if she was going to have Downes or not. (she doesn't)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think some of you are way off on the amnio thing. It makes perfect sense. They would clearly do the cell free DNA test (as most of us do, I think? I definitely did) and then the 12 week scan. There are several things that can get flagged by one of those where you then basically have to wait a few weeks and do the amnio to have a definitive answer. Like Spina Bifida. So in the story, it makes sense that maybe since the pregnancy was maybe not going to work out she put off telling Tom, and now that she has the all clear from the amnio she knows she’s going to have to tell him.

Genetic amniocentesis is usually done between weeks 14 and 20 of pregnancy. Amniocentesis done before week 14 of pregnancy might lead to more complications.

Reasons to consider genetic amniocentesis include:

Having positive results from a prenatal screening test. If the results of a screening test — such as the first-trimester screen or prenatal cell-free DNA screening — show high risk or are worrisome, amniocentesis might confirm or rule out a diagnosis.
Having an earlier pregnancy affected by a genetic condition. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to look for that condition.
Being 35 or older. Babies born to people 35 and older have a higher risk of chromosomal conditions, such as Down syndrome. A health care provider might suggest amniocentesis to rule out these conditions if prenatal cell-free DNA screening is positive.
Having a family history of a genetic condition, or if the parents are carriers of a genetic condition. Besides identifying Down syndrome, amniocentesis can be used to diagnose other genetic conditions, such as cystic fibrosis.
Having unusual ultrasound findings. A health care provider might recommend amniocentesis to diagnose or rule out genetic conditions associated with unusual ultrasound findings.

You guys are reading way too much into this. They talked about an amnio to 1) tell us shiv was pregnant, and 2) to tell us how far along she was (since it’s done later on, and they also snuck in the 20 week scan comment). That’s it. It’s not a detailed medical drama focusing on insurance claims and ICD10 codes.

Kendall has one biological son with autism (possibly more). His daughter is adopted. Shiv had the amino because she’s afraid of the baby having any type of defect.

Shiv may have had another baby with birth defects.

The doctor said there were concerns based on testing she had had. My first blood test showed a possibility of Downs. I would have needed to follow up with an amnio to determine with certainty. I elected not to, but many do. Very common.

The conversation with the doctor was very vague. She referred to "some things" they were worried about earlier, and that the amnio put them to rest. Could be something on an earlier test, something they saw on the ultrasound, a family history thing, or it could even just have been Shiv randomly worrying about something being wrong (I had a lot of anxiety with my first pregnancy, it's normal) and wanting extra assurance that everything was in order.

I really do not think we can assume anything about the pregnancy, Shiv's state of mind, or even her age based on the fact they did an amnio. All we know is that it was done, this is not a super out of the ordinary test, and Shiv's came back clear.

It's funny to me that people are speculating all over the place about the amnio but no one has mentioned a scene from one of the trailers that appears to be Shiv drinking from a class in Sweden with the the Gojo guy, and it made me wonder how long she hides her pregnancy and if she winds up in uncomfortable situations as a result (like being pressured to drink with the Swede to not offend him or prove she's sufficiently like him, in a desperate attempt to better secure her position at the company or on that specific deal). This seems more relevant than the amniocentesis, which was one line in a scene that was obviously just intended to let the audience know Shiv was pregnant and that she had some ambivalent feelings about it, based on her response to the doctor's news.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh snap! PPs bet wrong- both Kerri and Marcia back!

Well, I wouldn't call Kerry "back." But indeed, Marcia was not shopping in Milan forever. She is mean as a snake. Her interaction with Willa was everything. Oh man.

And I guess there was also a Succession Final Season thread. I'm being annoying, but I called Shiv being pregnant too. At this point that almost seems like it didn't happen. That was crazy.

But Will had a great response. Marcia sucks.

And why was Greg on the letter???

I agree! I thought good for Willa

Can either of you summarize what was said? I don't remember.

It was something like: Marcia, snarkily "Willa, congratulations. You've come a long way." Willa, "Thanks. You, too."

Thank you!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I 100% thought that the death was a huge hoax by Logan - that he was testing his kids to see how they would react to his death and what they would say to him in those last minutes. I fully expected him to walk into the boat and make some awful, disparaging remarks to them, after humiliating them. Glad that didn’t happen - that would have just been too cruel.

I was especially moved by both Kendall and Tom in this episode. Tom was so kind to Shiv.

The dialogue is getting weaker and weaker - so many f*cks peppering the conversation. It’s beyond old and strikes me as lazy.

I found Tom fascinating in this episode because I think he genuinely felt for Shiv in that moment, but I also think his kindness was at least 30% him realizing that with Logan dead, Shiv is his only real lifeline. Without her, he’s all the way out.

And I love how there were thematic parallels between that situation and Connor/Willa, with Connor straight up asking Willa if she was just in it fir the money and her getting very honest that the money is absolutely a big part of it for her.

I think the dialogue was very f**k heavy in this episode because everyone was in shock and didn’t know what to say, and people get kind of dumb in that situation. It’s realistic— people don’t give eloquent speeches in this situation. They can’t really process their feelings fast enough.

PP here and I agree with 99% of your post. But the f*ck issue is in every.single.episode. It's almost as if they're told to ad lib and they use constant profanity as a crutch while they think of what to say. Either that or the writers are incredibly lazy.

What if the writers aren’t lazy but the kids just aren’t that smart and they can’t think of what to say? Shiv, Roman, Tom, Greg are all pretty inarticulate and sub curse words for original thoughts. I think it’s very intentional that the writers use curse words instead of anything else.

There are some hilarious dirty insults. Incredibly witty and fast paced.

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists/amp

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-wellness/index.html

I have run in some highly intellectual, extremely wealthy circles and it’s an art form.

Dolts on dcum get their panties in a twist and mistake it for being classless. It couldn’t be further from the reality.

And I loved VEEP with Selena and Dan and Amy’s profanity Abe hilarious cut downs.

Well, it can be both classless and common to the upper classes at the same time. Let's not confuse money with taste, sensitivity, or manners.

+1. One thing the show nails is how Kendall dresses obnoxiously casually all the time because he doesn't feel he has to dress up for anything. He wears sweatshirts to the office. He wore a baseball cap to his brother's rehearsal dinner, where he barely acknowledged it was a rehearsal dinner and stayed for 20 minutes. He did bother to wear a suit to the wedding itself, but no tie and didn't button his shirt all the way. Yes, I get some of these are "fashion" choices, but the point is that he feels he can simply make a personal style choice no matter the venue or occasion because he's very rich and doesn't feel he has to conform to social norms. And sure, his sweatshirts and baseball caps likely cost more than many people's wedding gowns, but that doesn't magically make them more formal or respectful to others.

People made a big deal about Shiv's ponytail at the wedding but lots of very wealthy women dress kind of terribly or have sloppy hair or clothes. Again, they might spend a lot on it, but that doesn't mean it looks that way or that they feel like they have to conform to anyone's expectations.

The swearing is the same. These are people who are used to not having to play by the rules. Sometimes they choose to be sophisticated, but they don't have to -- they can say f**k all they want, dress down, treat people poorly, etc., and unlike for the rest of us, there are no consequences. None of them is getting fired for swearing or not following a dress code. They won't lose friends over it either, because their friends are all there because of the money, too. I mean, Willa married Connor while openly admitting the money was a major reason why (and let's get real, any affection she has for him was developed after latching onto him for the money).

The poor language and bad clothes are of a piece with their overall awful behavior. The whole point of this show is that these people do not have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. People who don't understand that are like the people who rooted for Tony Soprano and Walter White. The point just whooshing right over their simple minds.

What a strange, strange post - especially your last sentences. But I get that you think you're far sharper and more clever than everyone else.
DP

What is strange about it? This is a well-known phenomenon -- people who root for the anti-heroes in shows that show them at their worst. Lots of people absolutely rooted for Tony and Walter to get away with their criminal behavior (including murder), and plenty of people root for the people on Succession to successfully get away with their own bad behavior (including stuff like Kendall getting away with killing that kid in the car crash) or chuckle at stuff like Roman's rocket exploding or all the malfeasance/abuse that occurred in Waystar's cruise business. Being able to watch these shows and not forget your ethical compass, and be able to empathize with these people without actually rooting for them to successfully kill, swindle, exploit, etc., is not a sign of being sharper or more clever, but it is a sign of having more self-awareness and not being so easily swayed by a work of fiction.

OMG.

[Anonymous]

As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

I think they could’ve just said the test results came back positive rather than going through the amino then. I don’t think my husband knows what an amino is and we have a kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

Nope. Listen to the podcast. It is explained that Shiv is pregnant and that the amnio was to show that she is considered further along than just finding out (second trimester).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why was Roman so nice to Kerry? You'd think he didn't give a rats ass about her.

That's what I wondered too. He seemed genuinely sorry for the way Kerry was being treated.

He seemed interested in being able to reach her in the future. He asked for her personal number at least twice.

I found that interaction really weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

I think it's funny that you think that the fact that Jesse Armstrong is English and a man means he just randomly uses words like amniocentesis in his writing and he can't possibly know what it means and just thinks it's randomly a word associated with pregnancy. Like English people are notoriously ignorant about pregnancy or something? Armstrong does have kids and also, as a very successful writer, probably does actually research details in his scripts.

Not even saying the amnio is a huge plot point, just that I assume it was not randomly included for no reason. I assume the person who wrote that line knows what an amnio is and why you might have one and when you might have one, all of which is backed up by the actual dialogue in the scene (the doctor referencing potential issues that the amnio resolved, and also mentioning that the 20 week scan was coming up).

But I'm still cackling at the image of some posh Englishman sitting at his computer and asking his wife "darling, what is a random word that one might associate with a woman being with child? something musical, if possible, perhaps I can convert this to iambic pentameter!"

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I 100% thought that the death was a huge hoax by Logan - that he was testing his kids to see how they would react to his death and what they would say to him in those last minutes. I fully expected him to walk into the boat and make some awful, disparaging remarks to them, after humiliating them. Glad that didn’t happen - that would have just been too cruel.

I was especially moved by both Kendall and Tom in this episode. Tom was so kind to Shiv.

The dialogue is getting weaker and weaker - so many f*cks peppering the conversation. It’s beyond old and strikes me as lazy.

I found Tom fascinating in this episode because I think he genuinely felt for Shiv in that moment, but I also think his kindness was at least 30% him realizing that with Logan dead, Shiv is his only real lifeline. Without her, he’s all the way out.

And I love how there were thematic parallels between that situation and Connor/Willa, with Connor straight up asking Willa if she was just in it fir the money and her getting very honest that the money is absolutely a big part of it for her.

I think the dialogue was very f**k heavy in this episode because everyone was in shock and didn’t know what to say, and people get kind of dumb in that situation. It’s realistic— people don’t give eloquent speeches in this situation. They can’t really process their feelings fast enough.

PP here and I agree with 99% of your post. But the f*ck issue is in every.single.episode. It's almost as if they're told to ad lib and they use constant profanity as a crutch while they think of what to say. Either that or the writers are incredibly lazy.

What if the writers aren’t lazy but the kids just aren’t that smart and they can’t think of what to say? Shiv, Roman, Tom, Greg are all pretty inarticulate and sub curse words for original thoughts. I think it’s very intentional that the writers use curse words instead of anything else.

There are some hilarious dirty insults. Incredibly witty and fast paced.

https://www.sciencealert.com/swearing-is-a-sign-of-more-intelligence-not-less-say-scientists/amp

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/01/26/health/swearing-benefits-wellness/index.html

I have run in some highly intellectual, extremely wealthy circles and it’s an art form.

Dolts on dcum get their panties in a twist and mistake it for being classless. It couldn’t be further from the reality.

And I loved VEEP with Selena and Dan and Amy’s profanity Abe hilarious cut downs.

Well, it can be both classless and common to the upper classes at the same time. Let's not confuse money with taste, sensitivity, or manners.

+1. One thing the show nails is how Kendall dresses obnoxiously casually all the time because he doesn't feel he has to dress up for anything. He wears sweatshirts to the office. He wore a baseball cap to his brother's rehearsal dinner, where he barely acknowledged it was a rehearsal dinner and stayed for 20 minutes. He did bother to wear a suit to the wedding itself, but no tie and didn't button his shirt all the way. Yes, I get some of these are "fashion" choices, but the point is that he feels he can simply make a personal style choice no matter the venue or occasion because he's very rich and doesn't feel he has to conform to social norms. And sure, his sweatshirts and baseball caps likely cost more than many people's wedding gowns, but that doesn't magically make them more formal or respectful to others.

People made a big deal about Shiv's ponytail at the wedding but lots of very wealthy women dress kind of terribly or have sloppy hair or clothes. Again, they might spend a lot on it, but that doesn't mean it looks that way or that they feel like they have to conform to anyone's expectations.

The swearing is the same. These are people who are used to not having to play by the rules. Sometimes they choose to be sophisticated, but they don't have to -- they can say f**k all they want, dress down, treat people poorly, etc., and unlike for the rest of us, there are no consequences. None of them is getting fired for swearing or not following a dress code. They won't lose friends over it either, because their friends are all there because of the money, too. I mean, Willa married Connor while openly admitting the money was a major reason why (and let's get real, any affection she has for him was developed after latching onto him for the money).

The poor language and bad clothes are of a piece with their overall awful behavior. The whole point of this show is that these people do not have to play by the same rules as the rest of us. People who don't understand that are like the people who rooted for Tony Soprano and Walter White. The point just whooshing right over their simple minds.

What a strange, strange post - especially your last sentences. But I get that you think you're far sharper and more clever than everyone else.
DP

What is strange about it? This is a well-known phenomenon -- people who root for the anti-heroes in shows that show them at their worst. Lots of people absolutely rooted for Tony and Walter to get away with their criminal behavior (including murder), and plenty of people root for the people on Succession to successfully get away with their own bad behavior (including stuff like Kendall getting away with killing that kid in the car crash) or chuckle at stuff like Roman's rocket exploding or all the malfeasance/abuse that occurred in Waystar's cruise business. Being able to watch these shows and not forget your ethical compass, and be able to empathize with these people without actually rooting for them to successfully kill, swindle, exploit, etc., is not a sign of being sharper or more clever, but it is a sign of having more self-awareness and not being so easily swayed by a work of fiction.

OMG.

?? What is your problem?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh snap! PPs bet wrong- both Kerri and Marcia back!

Well, I wouldn't call Kerry "back." But indeed, Marcia was not shopping in Milan forever. She is mean as a snake. Her interaction with Willa was everything. Oh man.

And I guess there was also a Succession Final Season thread. I'm being annoying, but I called Shiv being pregnant too. At this point that almost seems like it didn't happen. That was crazy.

But Will had a great response. Marcia sucks.

And why was Greg on the letter???

I agree! I thought good for Willa

Can either of you summarize what was said? I don't remember.

It was something like: Marcia, snarkily "Willa, congratulations. You've come a long way." Willa, "Thanks. You, too."

Marcia: Look how far you've come (right after congratulating Willa and Connor on the wedding)
Willa: Well, look at us both, right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

I think it's funny that you think that the fact that Jesse Armstrong is English and a man means he just randomly uses words like amniocentesis in his writing and he can't possibly know what it means and just thinks it's randomly a word associated with pregnancy. Like English people are notoriously ignorant about pregnancy or something? Armstrong does have kids and also, as a very successful writer, probably does actually research details in his scripts.

Not even saying the amnio is a huge plot point, just that I assume it was not randomly included for no reason. I assume the person who wrote that line knows what an amnio is and why you might have one and when you might have one, all of which is backed up by the actual dialogue in the scene (the doctor referencing potential issues that the amnio resolved, and also mentioning that the 20 week scan was coming up).

But I'm still cackling at the image of some posh Englishman sitting at his computer and asking his wife "darling, what is a random word that one might associate with a woman being with child? something musical, if possible, perhaps I can convert this to iambic pentameter!"

I’m the original amino questioner (haha what a phrase) and honestly as soon as I heard it in the show I knew I had to see dcum’s thoughts on this. Did not disappoint.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

I think it's funny that you think that the fact that Jesse Armstrong is English and a man means he just randomly uses words like amniocentesis in his writing and he can't possibly know what it means and just thinks it's randomly a word associated with pregnancy. Like English people are notoriously ignorant about pregnancy or something? Armstrong does have kids and also, as a very successful writer, probably does actually research details in his scripts.

Not even saying the amnio is a huge plot point, just that I assume it was not randomly included for no reason. I assume the person who wrote that line knows what an amnio is and why you might have one and when you might have one, all of which is backed up by the actual dialogue in the scene (the doctor referencing potential issues that the amnio resolved, and also mentioning that the 20 week scan was coming up).

But I'm still cackling at the image of some posh Englishman sitting at his computer and asking his wife "darling, what is a random word that one might associate with a woman being with child? something musical, if possible, perhaps I can convert this to iambic pentameter!"

I’m the original amino questioner (haha what a phrase) and honestly as soon as I heard it in the show I knew I had to see dcum’s thoughts on this. Did not disappoint.

We should definitely talk about it for 4 or 5 more pages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As much as I like a lot about this show (the roast of Tom from this ep still has me cackling) I think the show is written by English white men who threw the word anmio in there just so we knew it was a pregnancy. And that’s it.

I think they could’ve just said the test results came back positive rather than going through the amino then. I don’t think my husband knows what an amino is and we have a kid.

Amino?