Study shows that 350k/year is barely scrapping by as middle class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$150K net is $300K gross, that income just pays for the schools.

So choose cheaper schools. There are options, Google is your friend.

Cool. Please explain to the poster a couple pages back that $300K rich is a shitshack in an undesirable neighborhood, 3 mediocre parochial "private" schools, a Toyota, and economy flights at best, but likely drive to the beach vacation. There seems to be some confusion about first class flights, range rovers and all that jazz.

This is us. Hyattsville. $300k barely enough.

Haha

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:$150K net is $300K gross, that income just pays for the schools.

So choose cheaper schools. There are options, Google is your friend.

Cool. Please explain to the poster a couple pages back that $300K rich is a shitshack in an undesirable neighborhood, 3 mediocre parochial "private" schools, a Toyota, and economy flights at best, but likely drive to the beach vacation. There seems to be some confusion about first class flights, range rovers and all that jazz.

there is no way anyone is scrapping by on 350. that is all.

Scraping by, not "scrapping." You have to scrape to use all your money, not scrap (throw away).

I wish you all would let this thread die. The misspelling in the title is extremely annoying.

Good thing you fixed the title on page 35

I wanted to say it earlier, but I didn't want to bump the thread. I hoped it would die a natural death.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have 350K HHI now, but this was not how we started 30 years ago. Infact till we were 30 we had no savings but what was being deducted for SS. We had no equity, no house, no kids, no savings. We also had no debt but also nothing worth selling. We were H1B visa holders who were in limbo for years. We were unable to have a side-gig because we were legally in this country. Anyhow, as soon as we got the GC, our salary doubled. We continued to live as if we were making 35K, saved in our 401K and took the match, and started to save for a down payment on a house. 35K in one year, enabled us to buy a 300K house. We had our 2 kids but we knew that we were lagging behind significantly in our retirement and savings. In another decade (when we were 40), we had saved for college for both the kids and started to save aggressively for retirement investments. I stopped working after saving every single cent I earned for a decade, for my kids education.

350K is a lot of money. In our 50s, we now have 4 years of state college paid for both the kids and 1/2 million each for both of them. We have a 3 million term life insurance. No debts except for the house payment. A retirement that will give us at least 200K per year after taxes and inflation-adjusted, and two million in investments.

Going from living paycheck to paycheck, to a life style that allows us to take foreign vacations with our kids at least once or twice a year, have cleaning service twice a week, be able to pay for tutors and expensive EC activities etc, have nice cars etc - without looking at the price, is a huge luxury.

I think that not having any saving for 8 years of our lives and living in H1B limbo land, with minimal pay - is in the same category as having student debt and childcare cost - at the very least. Where we managed to come out ahead was choosing a DMV area where we could get a SFH for 300K. The schools are not that great, but we were able to bypass the private school costs by working with our kids from the very beginning and giving them an enriched learning environment at home. They were able to be in the magnet programs in the public school system. Of course, my being a SAHM helped because I was able to manage the needs of my family and we did not have daycare costs - but it also meant that we were a single income family and my financial contribution was not measurable in dollar terms or through a 401K contribution.

My kids will however get a leg-up in life that we did not have - no student debt, a car, some cash, no cost for their wedding. We are and will be well-off till the end of our lives if the world is not overtaken by zombies etc.

So, for anyone who is making 350K in their 30s and feeling middle class on this forum, I think that it could be a fair complaint. You have a lot of expenses, but you also have lots of savings in your 30s. Hopefully, when this decade is over and your kids are in school., you will be feeling very rich because you will certainly be rich. Take it from us - we made 350 in our late 40s, played catch up with our retirement. In our 30s, we had no savings and certainly not the lifestyle you are enjoying in your 30s.

Hopefully, you will not feel middle class in your 50s, and instead will feel very wealthy and rich. Because you are. Truly.

You are way too rational for this thread.

No they a) bought a house cheaply 20 years ago b) had an educated SAHM mom who could provide both childcare in early years and school support (bet that also helped the husband's career) c) have been lucky not to retain the high salary into their 50's (many don't).

Sorry OR, but being on H1B visa after college does not remotely compare to having student loans and childcare costs. Everyone makes peanuts the first 5-6 years of their careers and most $300K households here are DUAL income, there just aren't that many $300K jobs.

I don't think so. Some of these are economic choices -

Cheaper houses that are an hour away from DC, and with less than stellar public schools are available in DMV, but people want homes closer to their work as well as with great schools. Yes, probably having a SAHM helped with the kids going to magnet schools in this particular case, but kids of WOHMs go to magnet public schools too. And having a SAHM is no guarantee that a kid will get into magnet programs. Having a SAHM helped with childcare and school homework and it probably helped with DH's career as well....but being a SAHM also meant that there was no second pay-check. Most WOHMs make enough money to pay for childcare as well as contribute to household expenses and retirement.

Not having kids for 7-8 years of marriage until you are settled is an economic choice. Not having pets is an economic choice. If you have not lived on a subsistence salary of H1B visa for years then you have no idea of why it is worse than having student debt. Anyone can payoff student debt in several years if they live on 40-50K per year. As mentioned above, not being able to afford having kids, no house, 1 cheap car, no cable, no eating out...these are economic choices that was made in the lean years that lasted for 10 years.

So to have a family that is making 350K in their 30s, with a house, two cars, paying into pension fund, paying into college funds, going for vacations and with a high food budget...these people will be very wealthy and will be able to set their kids up very well in life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a real example of how 350K can be Middle Class.

I was living in a paid off house with a stay at home wife and no kids in college making that much money. I would got to Turks and Caicos on vacation, buy wife a new car, had a BMW.

Well job ended, had to get new one. Same salary, much more expensive location and had to move. Now I have mortgage and my house costs me $3,700 a year. My kid started college and I have a second one starting in Fall. My college I am doing out of non-college savings as I only have enough for youngest and may be forced in early retirement. I will pay in Fall $8,000 a month for college on ten payment plan. Now I do $2,000 a month in 401k,

So I am up to $13,700 a month. Rest of bills car insurance, kids, food, you name it around $4,000 a month. So I am at $17,7000 month budget.

I cant afford nothing, have not been on a real vacation in three years. My car is a nine year old american car overdue for an oil change. My wife a 8 year old american car.

350K income here. One SAH. PITI $4600 NWDC in a 1m house. Don't need to take vacations - we've BTDT all over the world. I drive a 10-year-old Toyota with 80K miles on it, and I will drive that sumbitch into the ground, then will get on Craigslist and buy another used one and drive it for 10+ years. 1 kid in public school, 1 kid in college. We save 70K per year plus max out 401K. We DIY whatever we can and have fun doing it. We furnished our house off of Craigslist over the course of a year (West Elm, CB2, Restoration Hardware, DWR, C&B, Pottery Barn). Our house looks stylish enough and we saved a ton of money buying stuff used (hope we didn't bring in bed bugs, though). Anyway, at 350K a year, we feel super rich. I open up the car door and sit in the 10 years of stink and it's comforting. I don't worry that someone is going to scratch or ding the car, or if the dog is going to puke in it. That's freedom. Your lifestyle is high-stress with all the things you buy and what you think you need.

[Anonymous]

A fool and his money is soon parted.

Yes, some people can earn 350K, but how many people can keep and grow it?

350K is UMC for savvy people and wealthy for savvy and frugal people. It is MC for someone who had unexpected catastrophe (illness, hurricanes, special needs) or someone who is incredibly incompetent in money management.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think previous posters nailed it on why people at 300-350k feel middle class. T hey are spending most of their money on things that will reap benefits in the future. Childcare for the second income that later won’t require childcare, a mortgage that will pay off a home here, college savings so their kids don’t have any loans, and a large retirement fund that won’t need to pay for a mortgage or childcare.

So right now they feel very average and middle class. But later on they won’t.

I don’t know, I think it’s also a case of lifestyle creep. There’s no reason you can’t save AND live decently in the present on that income.

Lifestyle creep is definitely part of it. Everyone needs 2 nice cars, iPhone, cable package, eat dinner out once a week plus date nights, sports tickets, etc.... also vacations tend to get nicer, no longer taking the family camping you are instead renting a beach house for the week or flying somewhere to spend the week in a hotel, Disney maybe for the kids?

Absolutely! We are guilty of it too and make less than many on here who are grousing ($175k, dual income). We definitely indulge in things that my parents never could afford when I was a kid. Dinners out were for special occasions only, tickets to an MLB game or theater performance would have been a birthday gift. Whereas two weeks ago we were like hey it’s a nice day let’s go to the Nats game. AND we bought the overpriced food/beer there.

I guess the difference is that I recognize it and know how fortunate we are.

We rarely went out to dinner when I was a kid in this area. Dinner out was reserved for trips away from home. Sports tickets happened sometimes but the redskins were expensive and the Orioles were a long drive. Nats tickets are not very expensive and plentiful.

To you and me, Nats tickets are not expensive. But even the cheapest seats will typically set you back $100 for a family of 4. For many families that is not an insignificant purchase.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A fool and his money is soon parted.

Yes, some people can earn 350K, but how many people can keep and grow it?

350K is UMC for savvy people and wealthy for savvy and frugal people. It is MC for someone who had unexpected catastrophe (illness, hurricanes, special needs) or someone who is incredibly incompetent in money management.

Do you consider having children and requiring legal on the books childcare to be incompetence? What about the $1,200 a month you’re supposed to save per kid for college? Or federal taxes? Do all of these things scream incompetence to you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a real example of how 350K can be Middle Class.

I was living in a paid off house with a stay at home wife and no kids in college making that much money. I would got to Turks and Caicos on vacation, buy wife a new car, had a BMW.

Well job ended, had to get new one. Same salary, much more expensive location and had to move. Now I have mortgage and my house costs me $3,700 a year. My kid started college and I have a second one starting in Fall. My college I am doing out of non-college savings as I only have enough for youngest and may be forced in early retirement. I will pay in Fall $8,000 a month for college on ten payment plan. Now I do $2,000 a month in 401k,

So I am up to $13,700 a month. Rest of bills car insurance, kids, food, you name it around $4,000 a month. So I am at $17,7000 month budget.

I cant afford nothing, have not been on a real vacation in three years. My car is a nine year old american car overdue for an oil change. My wife a 8 year old american car.

350K income here. One SAH. PITI $4600 NWDC in a 1m house. Don't need to take vacations - we've BTDT all over the world. I drive a 10-year-old Toyota with 80K miles on it, and I will drive that sumbitch into the ground, then will get on Craigslist and buy another used one and drive it for 10+ years. 1 kid in public school, 1 kid in college. We save 70K per year plus max out 401K. We DIY whatever we can and have fun doing it. We furnished our house off of Craigslist over the course of a year (West Elm, CB2, Restoration Hardware, DWR, C&B, Pottery Barn). Our house looks stylish enough and we saved a ton of money buying stuff used (hope we didn't bring in bed bugs, though). Anyway, at 350K a year, we feel super rich. I open up the car door and sit in the 10 years of stink and it's comforting. I don't worry that someone is going to scratch or ding the car, or if the dog is going to puke in it. That's freedom. Your lifestyle is high-stress with all the things you buy and what you think you need.

I drove an old car for years. We don’t even use a car on a regular basis. BUT - I wouldn’t be too smug about driving a 10 year old car when you have kids. If you get in a major wreck and don’t have the latest safety features you won’t be as smug. Especially if your kid gets injured so you can save a few bucks.

You’re pretty much proving the point of the post. Driving an old, probably unsafe car and shopping on Craigslist for furniture isn’t a “rich” lifestyle. What you described is very middle class. Same with not taking vacations.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A fool and his money is soon parted.

Yes, some people can earn 350K, but how many people can keep and grow it?

350K is UMC for savvy people and wealthy for savvy and frugal people. It is MC for someone who had unexpected catastrophe (illness, hurricanes, special needs) or someone who is incredibly incompetent in money management.

Do you consider having children and requiring legal on the books childcare to be incompetence? What about the $1,200 a month you’re supposed to save per kid for college? Or federal taxes? Do all of these things scream incompetence to you?

Not incompetence, but those are luxuries and/or a but a dream to most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A fool and his money is soon parted.

Yes, some people can earn 350K, but how many people can keep and grow it?

350K is UMC for savvy people and wealthy for savvy and frugal people. It is MC for someone who had unexpected catastrophe (illness, hurricanes, special needs) or someone who is incredibly incompetent in money management.

Do you consider having children and requiring legal on the books childcare to be incompetence? What about the $1,200 a month you’re supposed to save per kid for college? Or federal taxes? Do all of these things scream incompetence to you?

MC and LC cannot afford all of these things. UMC means having kids and being able to afford legal, quality childcare. 1,200 a month for college per child is not what college costs. Most people will look at state college with 10K tuition/per year and expect their kids to work and also save for college. These are not poor kids, these are solidly MC kids. You are saving a quarter million per child for education? Dude - you are solidly UMC or UC. No one saves 50k a year for college. Most people are lucky to earn that much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a real example of how 350K can be Middle Class.

I was living in a paid off house with a stay at home wife and no kids in college making that much money. I would got to Turks and Caicos on vacation, buy wife a new car, had a BMW.

Well job ended, had to get new one. Same salary, much more expensive location and had to move. Now I have mortgage and my house costs me $3,700 a year. My kid started college and I have a second one starting in Fall. My college I am doing out of non-college savings as I only have enough for youngest and may be forced in early retirement. I will pay in Fall $8,000 a month for college on ten payment plan. Now I do $2,000 a month in 401k,

So I am up to $13,700 a month. Rest of bills car insurance, kids, food, you name it around $4,000 a month. So I am at $17,7000 month budget.

I cant afford nothing, have not been on a real vacation in three years. My car is a nine year old american car overdue for an oil change. My wife a 8 year old american car.

350K income here. One SAH. PITI $4600 NWDC in a 1m house. Don't need to take vacations - we've BTDT all over the world. I drive a 10-year-old Toyota with 80K miles on it, and I will drive that sumbitch into the ground, then will get on Craigslist and buy another used one and drive it for 10+ years. 1 kid in public school, 1 kid in college. We save 70K per year plus max out 401K. We DIY whatever we can and have fun doing it. We furnished our house off of Craigslist over the course of a year (West Elm, CB2, Restoration Hardware, DWR, C&B, Pottery Barn). Our house looks stylish enough and we saved a ton of money buying stuff used (hope we didn't bring in bed bugs, though). Anyway, at 350K a year, we feel super rich. I open up the car door and sit in the 10 years of stink and it's comforting. I don't worry that someone is going to scratch or ding the car, or if the dog is going to puke in it. That's freedom. Your lifestyle is high-stress with all the things you buy and what you think you need.

I drove an old car for years. We don’t even use a car on a regular basis. BUT - I wouldn’t be too smug about driving a 10 year old car when you have kids. If you get in a major wreck and don’t have the latest safety features you won’t be as smug. Especially if your kid gets injured so you can save a few bucks.

You’re pretty much proving the point of the post. Driving an old, probably unsafe car and shopping on Craigslist for furniture isn’t a “rich” lifestyle. What you described is very middle class. Same with not taking vacations.

Did you miss the part where they are saving 70k per year after maxing our 401k? They could certainly do all of these things but choose not to.

[Anonymous]

My God, this is a breathtakingly stupid thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My God, this is a breathtakingly stupid thread.

I agree, is is stupid that people making 350k/ year consider themselves MC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My God, this is a breathtakingly stupid thread.

I agree, is is stupid that people making 350k/ year consider themselves MC.

Not PP but I keep coming back to laugh at the people here about to pop a blood vessel arguing that $350K isn't UMC/UC because they are saving thousands upon thousands a year and have no money for white lines and hookers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My God, this is a breathtakingly stupid thread.

I agree, is is stupid that people making 350k/ year consider themselves MC.

Not PP but I keep coming back to laugh at the people here about to pop a blood vessel arguing that $350K isn't UMC/UC because they are saving thousands upon thousands a year and have no money for white lines and hookers.

I’m the person you quoted that finds it stupid, and personally, it doesn’t make me laugh. It just shows me how clueless the UC is. It’s frustrating and insulting to those of us that ARE the struggling MC. (Own the actual average priced house of ~200k, make the actual median wage of 60k, send kids to public school, barely save for retirement, live paycheck to paycheck with no backup, do a road trip to somewhere a few hours away for vacation if you’re even able to afford one this year, etc...) if the MC had the lifestyle some of these posters are complaining about we wouldn’t have so many people feeling left behind and angry in our country today, and might actually feel like their kids will do better than them and move up the ladder.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/personalfinance/2013/10/24/retirement-health-care-social-security/3169827/ many Americans don’t expect to retire

(I only cite the article for the statistics, not this BS “oh everyone can save and have a plan!” Because no, if everyone just saved that would cause a recession).