MCPS to end areawide Blair Magnet and countywide Richard Montgomery's IB program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Is it really mostly MAP scores (and I guess essays, but those are often even more skewed by background and resources) that go into the selection of these students? Do they not do intelligence testing, look at letters of recommendations, do interviews, etc? If not, how are people so sure that the students at Blair, RMIB, etc, really are so much more intelligent than the kids who don't attend and that people think shouldn't attend?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Yeah I really don't want a program that just gives hardworking better-off kids a leg up over smarter but poorer kids. More than half the kids at Blair SMCS and RMIB are from just four schools: Wootton, Churchill, WJ, and RM-- that's over 500 kids between the 4-- while most of the other schools send less than 5 kids per year. I am very, very skeptical that that's based on actual disparities in intelligence and potential among kids in those schools versus others...

All those schools all have higher level classes. There are huge disparities in what the schools offer. They should keep the DCC consortium and give more access to higher level classes and keep it for only DCC kids. There are lots of smart, capable DCC kids but they either end up at private, Blair or Wheaton or the families move to get those higher level classes or kids go without, as many do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Yeah I really don't want a program that just gives hardworking better-off kids a leg up over smarter but poorer kids. More than half the kids at Blair SMCS and RMIB are from just four schools: Wootton, Churchill, WJ, and RM-- that's over 500 kids between the 4-- while most of the other schools send less than 5 kids per year. I am very, very skeptical that that's based on actual disparities in intelligence and potential among kids in those schools versus others...

All those schools all have higher level classes. There are huge disparities in what the schools offer. They should keep the DCC consortium and give more access to higher level classes and keep it for only DCC kids. There are lots of smart, capable DCC kids but they either end up at private, Blair or Wheaton or the families move to get those higher level classes or kids go without, as many do.

You could not raise a student cohort for Blair's magnet just from the DCC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Is it really mostly MAP scores (and I guess essays, but those are often even more skewed by background and resources) that go into the selection of these students? Do they not do intelligence testing, look at letters of recommendations, do interviews, etc? If not, how are people so sure that the students at Blair, RMIB, etc, really are so much more intelligent than the kids who don't attend and that people think shouldn't attend?

MCPS does COGAT testing which is actually a test of cognitive ability but because they’re dumb they don’t use that data for any selection processes for these programs and only use MAP which is not a test of cognitive ability.

No interviews, no letters of recommendation.

Someone posted on a thread that the staff at Julius West MS identify which kids should apply to the magnets and offer them help with their essays. I’ve never heard about this at other schools but given the level of prepping that is prevalent, I don’t think essays are where you’re going to be able to assess what a kid is capable of.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Yeah I really don't want a program that just gives hardworking better-off kids a leg up over smarter but poorer kids. More than half the kids at Blair SMCS and RMIB are from just four schools: Wootton, Churchill, WJ, and RM-- that's over 500 kids between the 4-- while most of the other schools send less than 5 kids per year. I am very, very skeptical that that's based on actual disparities in intelligence and potential among kids in those schools versus others...

All those schools all have higher level classes. There are huge disparities in what the schools offer. They should keep the DCC consortium and give more access to higher level classes and keep it for only DCC kids. There are lots of smart, capable DCC kids but they either end up at private, Blair or Wheaton or the families move to get those higher level classes or kids go without, as many do.

You could not raise a student cohort for Blair's magnet just from the DCC.

Yes, you could.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Is it really mostly MAP scores (and I guess essays, but those are often even more skewed by background and resources) that go into the selection of these students? Do they not do intelligence testing, look at letters of recommendations, do interviews, etc? If not, how are people so sure that the students at Blair, RMIB, etc, really are so much more intelligent than the kids who don't attend and that people think shouldn't attend?

MCPS does COGAT testing which is actually a test of cognitive ability but because they’re dumb they don’t use that data for any selection processes for these programs and only use MAP which is not a test of cognitive ability.

No interviews, no letters of recommendation.

Someone posted on a thread that the staff at Julius West MS identify which kids should apply to the magnets and offer them help with their essays. I’ve never heard about this at other schools but given the level of prepping that is prevalent, I don’t think essays are where you’re going to be able to assess what a kid is capable of.

My child applied to Blair and RMIb from JW. No one offered them any help. They were accepted at both and attended Blair I have never heard of that situation either. Not saying it didn't happen but might have been a particular teacher and student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Is it really mostly MAP scores (and I guess essays, but those are often even more skewed by background and resources) that go into the selection of these students? Do they not do intelligence testing, look at letters of recommendations, do interviews, etc? If not, how are people so sure that the students at Blair, RMIB, etc, really are so much more intelligent than the kids who don't attend and that people think shouldn't attend?

That’s kind of the point. You take 1 pct of the universe of kids and you pick them using either MAP-R or MAP-M. It’s unjustifiable. Pick the 1 pct more thoughtfully or expand the universe of kids. I would prefer the latter given that I don’t trust McPS’s picker.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Yeah I really don't want a program that just gives hardworking better-off kids a leg up over smarter but poorer kids. More than half the kids at Blair SMCS and RMIB are from just four schools: Wootton, Churchill, WJ, and RM-- that's over 500 kids between the 4-- while most of the other schools send less than 5 kids per year. I am very, very skeptical that that's based on actual disparities in intelligence and potential among kids in those schools versus others...

Did you see how few Whitman kids are at the programs? That’s because they involve a very long commute and it’s not worth it because Whitman has good course offerings and teachers. It’s not that kids from these high schools aren’t capable of being in the “1 percent.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

Okay, you are illustrating so many of the problems of this way of thinking and operating. If there really is only a top 1% with the brilliance and creativity to change the world who need special programs to nurture that talent further, then "working hard" isn't what gets you into that group. People's kids shouldn't just be "working harder" to bump up their MAP scores to get into countywide programs and then claiming they are better than everyone else and expansion would water things down, while taking the spaces from actually brilliant and creative kids from poorer backgrounds who don't have the time, resources, strong feeder schools, and sophistication to juice their scores enough to beat out the richer "hard workers."

If you want a program for the top 1% you need to figure out how to actually select the best kids with the most natural talent and potential across the county regardless of background. If you can't do then and those smarter poorer kids keep getting beaten out by bright hardworking richer kids, then you should cast a wider net.

Yeah I really don't want a program that just gives hardworking better-off kids a leg up over smarter but poorer kids. More than half the kids at Blair SMCS and RMIB are from just four schools: Wootton, Churchill, WJ, and RM-- that's over 500 kids between the 4-- while most of the other schools send less than 5 kids per year. I am very, very skeptical that that's based on actual disparities in intelligence and potential among kids in those schools versus others...

Did you see how few Whitman kids are at the programs? That’s because they involve a very long commute and it’s not worth it because Whitman has good course offerings and teachers. It’s not that kids from these high schools aren’t capable of being in the “1 percent.”

The inequality in Mcps is sickening.

[Anonymous]

There is no doubt that most of the kids in Blair SMACs/ Poolesville SMCs/ RMIB programs are brilliant. Both of my kids attended one of these schools but they were outside these programs. However, they are highly motivated and based on SAT scores younger one is in top 1.5-2 percent and older one in top 6 percent. They are strivers not naturals.

For kids like mine, MCPS hosting a magnet program within their school gave them access to classes they wouldn’t have had otherwise. My younger one told me that he was one of the only local kids in advanced science classes think AP Chem/ Physics / MV. Without the magnet program he would lose access.

Looking at AP Scores across schools on the MCPS dashboard, I recently realized that some schools don’t have enough students to offer classes like BC Cal. Countywide magnet programs in underserved schools help. For kids who don’t make the magnets but are strong/strivers, MCPS needs to offer rigor. Taking away the countywide magnet programs is idiotic.

However, offering alternatives for those kids who are strivers is essential. If MCPS added one or two more large area competitive programs in an underserved area, I think that would be amazing. Perhaps put a Blair CAP program in Seneca Valley and a Global Ecology program at Kennedy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you with young smart kids, you are screwed. You don’t know it now but by the time your kids’ are ready for HS, you will see.

People with young smart kids have had virtually no magnet access for them based on the current flawed MCPS approach of only providing magnet spots to a tiny number of kids countywide. If others are anything like me, we are freaking thrilled at the idea that MCPS might be changing this approach to provide more slots for more kids, and hoping it will lead to the same at the middle and elementary school level as well. More than 1-2% of the kids in this county deserve advanced programming.

As the parent of a 4 year-old, THIS. This x100. More options, closer to home = win, win. And not just for my kid. For lots of kids!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There is no doubt that most of the kids in Blair SMACs/ Poolesville SMCs/ RMIB programs are brilliant. Both of my kids attended one of these schools but they were outside these programs. However, they are highly motivated and based on SAT scores younger one is in top 1.5-2 percent and older one in top 6 percent. They are strivers not naturals.

For kids like mine, MCPS hosting a magnet program within their school gave them access to classes they wouldn’t have had otherwise. My younger one told me that he was one of the only local kids in advanced science classes think AP Chem/ Physics / MV. Without the magnet program he would lose access.

Looking at AP Scores across schools on the MCPS dashboard, I recently realized that some schools don’t have enough students to offer classes like BC Cal. Countywide magnet programs in underserved schools help. For kids who don’t make the magnets but are strong/strivers, MCPS needs to offer rigor. Taking away the countywide magnet programs is idiotic.

However, offering alternatives for those kids who are strivers is essential. If MCPS added one or two more large area competitive programs in an underserved area, I think that would be amazing. Perhaps put a Blair CAP program in Seneca Valley and a Global Ecology program at Kennedy.

Thank you for your thoughtful post. The widespread program changes that are proposed seem hurried. Reducing student cohort catchments for magnets to regional areas will likely result in less rigor for these programs. Reviewing the BOE presentations to date, I wonder if there will not be a cut-and-paste effort to duplicate programs, which may not work that well.

Our best program efforts in the county are locally developed. They are the result of outstanding principals who truly understand what rigor requires, and who support both meaningful staff development and teachers in developing curriculum that builds excellent programming. The Blair magnet wasn't built by central office staff; it was built by Blair HS educators.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Those of you with young smart kids, you are screwed. You don’t know it now but by the time your kids’ are ready for HS, you will see.

People with young smart kids have had virtually no magnet access for them based on the current flawed MCPS approach of only providing magnet spots to a tiny number of kids countywide. If others are anything like me, we are freaking thrilled at the idea that MCPS might be changing this approach to provide more slots for more kids, and hoping it will lead to the same at the middle and elementary school level as well. More than 1-2% of the kids in this county deserve advanced programming.

As the parent of a 4 year-old, THIS. This x100. More options, closer to home = win, win. And not just for my kid. For lots of kids!

As a Parent of 2MCPS grads, the options are not going to be anything much. Look at what happened when the added accelerated MS classes. After a few years it was acceleration for all and then they went away. The HGC were expanded into nothing earlier. I am super skeptical and can not imagine the bussing logistics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kids don't like to be in 99% group and want to be in that 1% group, have them work harder instead of demanding changing 1% to 10%. We all lose that way.

I completely support this. Great strides in humanity was not made by average people. It was only dreamed of and achieved by extraordinary folks.

You do realize what makes many people “extraordinary” is not high intelligence but action to solve a problem.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All of the justifications people are giving for why the system has to stay the way it is just sound like gatekeeping to me. People seem to want to benefit from a program and then slam the door behind them and keep access limited. “My kid was smart and had the right combination of skills and genius and prepping to do well, but yours might not!” “If more non-wealthy students have access to what my kids had access to, it will be tragic, the program will go downhill!” I’m all for broadening access. True access for students who qualify for a program. Not more gatekeeping behind lotteries, which is what MCPS has done in recent years and which isn’t any better. Why can’t each high school have the same advanced math classes? Because anonymous posters on dcum say it’s hard to get people with the right background to teach these subjects? It’s public school. People want a fair system, and having your course options limited because of where you live within the school district, or because the county does not create enough seats in a program for the number of students who qualify for the program, does not seem like a fair system.

I’m not gatekeeping. I’m in favor of expanding the number of seats in programs and even introducing a third SMCS program, a third Humanities program, and a second Global Ecology program so more students live within a reasonable commute. Play adjustments to the IB program.

What I’m not interested in is achieving equity by eliminating any meaningful cohorting and pretending that MCPS is flush with highly qualified, motivated teachers who are excited to take on new curricula.

They are going to roughly double the number of seats in SMCS programs (3 times the number of programs but each one will be smaller.). How is that eliminating any meaningful cohorting?

Because most of these programs aren’t for “smart” kids. Half or more MCPS’s students are smarter than the average American. These programs are for students who are already academically advanced, have demonstrated academic excellence, and are highly motivated to learn at a faster pace, dig deeper into material, master lessons on their own, complete special projects, and enter competitions. Not everyone wants that.

People complain about longer commutes to magnets, leaving friends behind at one’s home school, having trouble balancing extracurricular activities with long commutes and extra homework, but the existing programs require students and their parents to identify their top priority. The proposed changes are designed to make people feel like they can have it all.

For some of the current programs, group projects are a huge part of the experience. Projects can be bigger and much more detailed when there are 2-4 students working together. There’s frequently an issue where a student doesn’t do their fair share. Imagine amplifying that issue by admitting twice as many kids, many of whom wouldn’t have been interested in a program if it required a substantially bigger time commitment.

People keep posting that every kid who is qualified should have access to these programs. I don’t disagree with that, but I’m not sure we’re all envisioning the same definition of “qualified.” Is every student who could manage to pass these classes qualified? Students who maintain at least a C average in their program’s core classes? Students who are at least in the 90th percentile on subject related standardized testing? The top 10% of students in each individual region? 12% of all students countywide (twice the number currently being served)? What does qualified mean?

The top 10 percentile (ie, A students) by MAP M and R seems a good gauge. Having a hard cutoff, and an administration that will stand by it regardless of complaints) would prevent a watered down curriculum. From observation, those under 90 percentile really are B-type students and that’s where the wheels start coming off.

I have a 99.99% kid (MAP test at 99% level for 12th grade since 4th grade; CoGAT full score), and a 99% kid (MAP test on-level 99% or 1-2 level above; 3-4 questions wrong in CoGAT in each category). They are totally different kids. The first one barely learns anything from school but just self-studied through online materials they are able to find, but they find their peers at TPMS and Blair and are extremely happy to be able to finally social with their-kinds. They sought all kinds of national or international competition opportunities and worked as a team. They were able to deliver research analysis within a few weeks that typically takes a PhD student several months to complete. My second one is in general happy with school although still complaining about boredom from time to time. If my second one can be admitted to Blair, I think they would be able to survive, but would struggle from time to time and need to work hard.

Now you are talking about applying a curriculum that designed for the 99.9% kid, and a 99% kid would find very challenging, to the 90%-level kids. It will bring more harm than good. Only people went through this could understand.

I hope you say this out loud to someone in real life and they visibly roll their eyes at you. I mean, wth even is this?

My kid is far from Blair gifted but I get wanting your kid to have a likeminded peer group.

I don’t get arguing that it is the job of a public school system to keep hoarding all the best opportunities for the top 0.1%.

I actually think we have the resources to have 2 programs for highly able students AND have additional programs for other achieving students. This isn't hoarding. I'm not buying this new negative take on the magnet programs. I've heard that bad-mouthing language out of CO staff but they haven't released financial figures to back this up.

I don't arguing that is the job of the veterinarian to keep hoarding all the dogfood for the dogs.

It's not "hoarding" to match students to good-fit classes that wouldn't be good fits for other students.

Definitely not. But we have finite resources and we cannot continue to prioritize the best fit for the tiniest group of high achievers while overlooking the needs of large numbers of others.

+1 Agreed. There's no reason to target only the 1% and have nothing for the remaining the 99%. And that's assuming MCPS is even identifying which group of kids are the 1%, which they're probably not, since all they're looking at is MAP test scores which only test exposure and is fairly easy to game by a smart kid with some prep.

Then there is really no reason to go through all this at all. Go to your assigned HS. Choose amongst the available classes. Or go private. The busding sounds absurd for what sounds like a couple of extra electives with a cohort that would be sinilar to the ap track at any school.

What I would like to know is which schools do not have enough higher level course options and how many students at these schools would actually select some of these courses if offered. This is the kind of data MCPS should be collecting to determine need/interest. People keep focusing on whether we should cut resources for magnet students, but conversely should we overturn the entire system apple cart because a few dozen students across a handful of lower performing high schools don’t have an appropriate course in one subject in one or two school years? It seems like we should directly solve that problem for those kids rather than dismantle successful programs and sprinkle thousands of students all over the place to give the appearance of increased access.

What makes you believe it’s only a few dozen kids? Is the entire MCPS catalog available to every student to select classes from in order to determine what they would have an interest in taking?