Is VDA the best club to get recruited from?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

FVU has no history, this is their 2nd year in existence as FVU, 1st year without Mclean to prop them up. Prior to that they were Fairfax Brave for like 2 years and was the worst team in the Mid Atlantic. They have no real pool of players, their only real hope is that they can steal players from other clubs because the parents are willing to chase the badge. The 12's will fall apart next year when their best player leaves. The 13's should stick around I guess, they have to hope they've stolen enough of the 14's from Mclean, and the 2011's and up are not going to get it done.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

some Ecnl turned GA as well w the older groups. Honestly what is more concerning is the boys side. Some have been w club longer than a year as well. Some are choosing to finish journeys in places they like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

FVU has no history, this is their 2nd year in existence as FVU, 1st year without Mclean to prop them up. Prior to that they were Fairfax Brave for like 2 years and was the worst team in the Mid Atlantic. They have no real pool of players, their only real hope is that they can steal players from other clubs because the parents are willing to chase the badge. The 12's will fall apart next year when their best player leaves. The 13's should stick around I guess, they have to hope they've stolen enough of the 14's from Mclean, and the 2011's and up are not going to get it done.

Aha lol. We may know each-other. The titanic is sinking. And the 14s will be in for a shock next year post birth year changes.
Arl supposedly has gotten some good additions and VDA is stacked. Hearing the 11s may not have a full roster(13-15) and are still IDing girls from BRYC/VSA etc etc.

Im really curious about the field/practice locations. Will have to reach back to see if that was straightened out. Not really hip to the 12s but I have heard the same about that best player leaving. The younger teams kept them off probation. I really hope it works out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

Honestly I would try to get DD with a good GA team. The showcases push them over RL in the MA. If this were a western conference I would say the opposite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

If it is Arlington, I would go elsewhere. There is a below zero investment in the RL teams. You are there to write checks, receive daily gaslighting that your DD is one day going to make it (I know it, I can just feel it, one more year of development, it’s coming!), and shut your mouth/eat your food.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

FVU has no history, this is their 2nd year in existence as FVU, 1st year without Mclean to prop them up. Prior to that they were Fairfax Brave for like 2 years and was the worst team in the Mid Atlantic. They have no real pool of players, their only real hope is that they can steal players from other clubs because the parents are willing to chase the badge. The 12's will fall apart next year when their best player leaves. The 13's should stick around I guess, they have to hope they've stolen enough of the 14's from Mclean, and the 2011's and up are not going to get it done.

Aha lol. We may know each-other. The titanic is sinking. And the 14s will be in for a shock next year post birth year changes.
Arl supposedly has gotten some good additions and VDA is stacked. Hearing the 11s may not have a full roster(13-15) and are still IDing girls from BRYC/VSA etc etc.

Im really curious about the field/practice locations. Will have to reach back to see if that was straightened out. Not really hip to the 12s but I have heard the same about that best player leaving. The younger teams kept them off probation. I really hope it works out.

Can you explain more about the field/practice locations? is FVU losing more of its already limited field spaces?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

Honestly I would try to get DD with a good GA team. The showcases push them over RL in the MA. If this were a western conference I would say the opposite.

Thanks. Are the showcases important at u13? Ideally, our goal is to be at the right spot by u15, so curious on whether you stay on a strong RL team as DP with direct feeder to highly competitive ECNL club or spend a couple of years at a strong GA team and then consider switching “back” to the ECNL team that you would have fed into if you stayed RL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

Honestly I would try to get DD with a good GA team. The showcases push them over RL in the MA. If this were a western conference I would say the opposite.

Thanks. Are the showcases important at u13? Ideally, our goal is to be at the right spot by u15, so curious on whether you stay on a strong RL team as DP with direct feeder to highly competitive ECNL club or spend a couple of years at a strong GA team and then consider switching “back” to the ECNL team that you would have fed into if you stayed RL.

Showcase doesn’t matter until U16 and up. Before then it’s just a game to play. No college scouts whatsoever at U15 and below.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yeah, it's interesting that there seem to be posts popping up - Richmond United had a post about their pathway from RL to NL and how many players were promoted from their RL teams...hmmm.

Well we saw what happened with this club. This age group thing may have caused way more problems than we think or ecnl anticipated. Maybe in other conferences families decided to go to GA over going down a year and/or ECRL. Absolutely seems like coordinated damage control imo. And I have neeeeeeeever heard a player cut from ECNL say I want to move to RL. Its possible the pathway gravy train is over now that girls have more options with better opportunities for visibility. GA has waaaay more showcases.

Someone mentioned this earlier and I think it's accurate. For both boys and girls, they see MLS Next AD and GA as better alternatives than ECNL RL if they can't make an ECNL NL team. Or maybe even if they could, if the NL team or club is likely to be a trainwreck. ECNL RL knows this and is trying to combat this perception.

Agreed. Not to bash them but FVU is loosing some girls at the older ages
to GA clubs. Some actually got offers but saw more upside with their new homes. Definitely not on my bingo card.

What about the girls that came to Fairfax Virginia Union and are going back to their old club in less than a year?

Is their old club RL or GA?

Both.

If you got a DP designation at u13 that allowed you to practice with ECNL (1-2 days a week), would you try it for a year or try to make another ECNL or GA team? Assume that the ECNL team should be very very good and it is the club closest to your house.

Honestly I would try to get DD with a good GA team. The showcases push them over RL in the MA. If this were a western conference I would say the opposite.

Thanks. Are the showcases important at u13? Ideally, our goal is to be at the right spot by u15, so curious on whether you stay on a strong RL team as DP with direct feeder to highly competitive ECNL club or spend a couple of years at a strong GA team and then consider switching “back” to the ECNL team that you would have fed into if you stayed RL.

Showcase doesn’t matter until U16 and up. Before then it’s just a game to play. No college scouts whatsoever at U15 and below.

Thanks, so coming back to the question at hand, try VSA DP with VDA for a year or switch to a competitive GA team at U13? Given all the changes, hard to tell how competitive teams will be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pipeline had a similar post up today. There is definitely a move on social media to compare RL to GA. My child currently on an ECNL (girl, recruiting years age, for what it is worth) has only seen girls who have not been reoffered go to GA teams over RL. They have taken a few girls from GA teams but I think that is largely a function of the realignment from one major club in the area.

My son (just shy of recruiting age) has seen both kinds of movement. RL boys are definitely choosing MLSN2 over RL. Some boys have moved to MLSN1 teams that have 28-30 kids rostered and made their way back for playing time/not rostered reasons.

Interesting. Was this an ecnl directive from the top. FVU also cringe posted with their pathway clubs touting unity. GA must be doing major damage to ECRL. And it makes sense imo. They have a better platform than RL.

My guess is ECNL armed clubs with the data to promote RL. Valor had a similar post as VSA. The big piece missing is D1. The posts only focus on D2 and D3. I am guessing if you add D1 then it shows that GA has a % that goes there and RL is less than 5% that goes D1.

What was the VSA post about?

ECNL (Reject League) RL is better than GA

They are rejected from ECNL

VSA has better college placement than some area GA’s so they might have a point?

GA clubs just started one or two years ago in NOVA. Of course they have better placement