Exclusive school clubs in 4th and 5th grade

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a variety of clubs, some open to all and others by application and/or where cuts are made. In elementary school, my child could tell me which math and reading group she was in and how that compared to others, plus had special pull outs for those two subject areas as she and some of her peers were seemingly more advanced. She also was asked by the teacher leading a club to do the math afterschool activity being offered. I see this as teachers differentiating and challenging my child. Other clubs she has had to go through an application process and cuts have become more common in middle school, which is perfectly fine by me. We can't always be selected and she needs to learn that lesson. Having a wide breadth of clubs helps children find their interests and have new experiences. As long as you do not perceive children are being cherrypicked for activities because of their parents' status on the PTA, careers, etc. I think it is okay if not all clubs are open to all.

The cherry-picking definitely happened at our elementary school.

Absolutely. And sometimes it benefited my kid because she was well liked by the teachers and we were active at the school (we never pressed anyone to choose her, but it was common for the kids if people who volunteered a lot or donated money often to get picked).

But it was bad for school culture. It creates resentment and also undermines the kids. It would have been better for my DD to be selected for fewer things but entirely on her merit (and she has plenty of merit). The perception, not inaccurate, that the school was just playing favorites made the culture weird and uncomfortable.

There’s also the very real problem that some teachers have problems with some kids’ immutable characteristics, or think their job is advancing equity to the benefit of some kids and the costs others. If you can’t explain your criteria, parents are going to quite reasonably suspect there might be something like this going on. You want to see a school self immolate… this is how you do it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our school does have some things like this, but other things are mentioned to kids themselves and parents are only contacted if their kid indicates interest. If you have a kid that doesn’t always volunteer themselves and/or just doesn’t pay a ton of attention, that’s another possibility. One of my kids is invited to do everything while another is barely cognizant that the activities exist; if it weren’t for kid #1, I’d think opportunities weren’t advertised to the kids themselves… but because of kid #1, I know they are.

OP here, that could be it.

Thanks to the other PPs too. I don’t think the leadership club in this case is code for behavior improvement—I know the kids and they are good kids.

Exclusive clubs are not the same as ability-based, open-through-competition clubs. Teachers inviting certain kids quietly is problematic in elementary in my opinion. Letting kids try and fail is a good exercise. But creating opportunities only for certain kids and quietly/almost secretly is quite another. I don’t know exactly what’s happening though and didn’t want to jump to conclusions.

But the point is that some of the "exclusive clubs" are things that the kids implicitly auditioned for via their classes (DCPS math bowl, DCPS Google competition, Battle of the Books, DCPS 5th Grade All Star Choir). The math instructional coach, the music teacher, etc don't need to do sham auditions, because they already know which kids can do math, read books quickly, sing well, etc. Your kid was eligible and considered, he just didn't get it.

What does “implicitly auditioned” mean? Shouldn’t the kids and parents (in elementary) be told these opportunities exist? You can’t compete for or be motivated by something if you don’t know about it. I’m perfectly fine with my kid being told you’re not good enough for this if that’s the case, but that’s not what happened.

It means teachers have access to all kinds of information about your kid and they place them into the opportunities based on that. Like at our school, the kids who score above a certain threshold on the assessments get to have a special math club, those who score above a certain number on ELA get to join a book club.

This. The teachers all know who the top kids. At our school, the group of top kids in reading had a book club while the other kids worked on reading skills. They also got to do story time to the lower grades and some other things.

Let it rest, OP. Yoir kid just didn’t make the cut. It’s OK and life. Other PP is right. The school and teachers don’t announce such things because parents will be emailing and calling ad nauseum about getting their kid in.

I just see it as a sort of differentiation in the elementary level.

I don’t doubt that teachers THINK they know this, but like everyone else they are very, very, very often fooled by confirmation bias and implicit racial and gender bias. I know that the HS math teacher who gave me a D wasn’t a very good judge of my potential, and I said as much to the assembled parents, teachers, and admins when I had a chance to say a few words at an awards banquet after being recognized for winning (during the same semester that I earned a D) a statewide math competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our school does have some things like this, but other things are mentioned to kids themselves and parents are only contacted if their kid indicates interest. If you have a kid that doesn’t always volunteer themselves and/or just doesn’t pay a ton of attention, that’s another possibility. One of my kids is invited to do everything while another is barely cognizant that the activities exist; if it weren’t for kid #1, I’d think opportunities weren’t advertised to the kids themselves… but because of kid #1, I know they are.

OP here, that could be it.

Thanks to the other PPs too. I don’t think the leadership club in this case is code for behavior improvement—I know the kids and they are good kids.

Exclusive clubs are not the same as ability-based, open-through-competition clubs. Teachers inviting certain kids quietly is problematic in elementary in my opinion. Letting kids try and fail is a good exercise. But creating opportunities only for certain kids and quietly/almost secretly is quite another. I don’t know exactly what’s happening though and didn’t want to jump to conclusions.

But the point is that some of the "exclusive clubs" are things that the kids implicitly auditioned for via their classes (DCPS math bowl, DCPS Google competition, Battle of the Books, DCPS 5th Grade All Star Choir). The math instructional coach, the music teacher, etc don't need to do sham auditions, because they already know which kids can do math, read books quickly, sing well, etc. Your kid was eligible and considered, he just didn't get it.

NP. I don't know about this. Some of this stuff, yes, teachers will know because kids are explicitly tested in a variety of ways (homework, in class small groups, iReady diagnostics, RCTs, etc.). So yes, if the school does a club for kids who are advanced in math and only offers it to the kids testing above a certain level in math, that makes sense.

But for categories, I think you need a more explicit try out. Some kids sing very well but are shy during music class and sing quietly or hide in the back. That's actually exactly the sort of kid who would benefit from being singled out for something like an after school choir. Not 5th Grade All Star Choir but a club specific to the school. Or with writing -- some kids write well but struggle with the structured writing they are prompted to do in school. If you're doing a creative writing club after school, you should base it on an open writing assignment that allows kids to show off their ability/creativity, not on how well they answer curriculum based reading comprehension questions in ELA.

And OP said this club was for leadership. I actually think basing that on teacher selection instead of an application process is really dicy because in elementary, kids with "leadership" qualities are sometimes just popular kids. They tend to be the oldest in the grade, for boys the tallest or most athletic, for girls the prettiest. This is why we don't let 3rd graders vote (though many adults don't do any better than this). If I was creating a leadership club at an elementary school, I would have a formal application process where kids explained in their own words what makes a good leader, what they think it means to have strength of character, be persuasive, or what obligations leaders have to the people they lead. Some of the popular kids likely would do well on that application, but I bet you'd also discover some of the kids outside of that group have a lot to offer and deserve an opportunity to hone those leadership skills. Otherwise you are just reinforcing the shallow preferences of school popularity, not really helping to build strong leaders.

All of this was written by someone who is clearly not a teacher.

I was a teacher for years. Teachers understand each kid very well, and can see through all of this.

Teachers also have a LOT of exposure to parents who don't have a good grasp on how their kids compare to the rest of the kids.

I will say in DCPS it is very difficult to get a feel for how my kids compare to the rest of the kids. The school rarely shares the information they have that compares my kid to others and instead just compares my kid to mushy "meeting expectations" benchmarks on the 1-4 scale. CAPE testing was one of the few times I got information that explicitly compared my kid to others. Another was a rare time that the school shared the distribution of iready diagnostic scores, and that was only because parents were complaining about a change in curriculum and the school wanted to push back and show that scores increased. I realized after awhile I'd get better info from my kids because they know what reading and math groups they are in. Even if the teachers won't tell us whether our kids are in the highest group and just call the groups different cutesy animal names, the kids know where they stand.

Teachers have no interest in telling parents "hey, you have an above average kid, with 15 kids above and 10 below in this classroom." that's not a pleasant or appropriate conversation to have with a parent.

However, teachers do know how the kids rank, and they use that information all the time.

Right. But I was responding to the gripe that parents do not have a good grasp on where their kid stands and make unreasonable requests. If the school only compares the kid to benchmarks, it's really hard to tell, especially if the kid is performing well against the benchmarks at a school with other good students. They could be average, they could be close to the top of the class, and either way still get a 3.

Thr standardized tests in DCPS give you percent rankings of kids against all kids who take the test at that age. But you won’t get grade level data comparisons against other kids in the school. Quite frankly that’s inappropriate and can become identifiable. No teacher will tell you that, and it’s not your business. But my kid’s iReady tells me where they rank against all kids, and that’s great data.

Ok, again for the people who lack reading comprehension skills, I was responding to the "teacher" who griped about how parents have a misconception of how well their child is doing compared to other kids. If a teacher knows parents don't have the info, it seems crappy to complain parents have a misconception.

Also, iReady only tells you so much and, in my experience now that my kids are older and I have CAPE data, do not let a 98th/99th percentile score in iready lull you into the sense that your kid is at the 98th or 99th percentile at your DCPS elementary. If you're at one of the top performing schools, they are likely not that high.

CAPE is an awful test. When my kids are older I’ll use AP scores, MAP and PSAT/SAT. I don’t care if my kid is 98th percentile on CAPE, it’s only compared to other DCPS kids anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our school does have some things like this, but other things are mentioned to kids themselves and parents are only contacted if their kid indicates interest. If you have a kid that doesn’t always volunteer themselves and/or just doesn’t pay a ton of attention, that’s another possibility. One of my kids is invited to do everything while another is barely cognizant that the activities exist; if it weren’t for kid #1, I’d think opportunities weren’t advertised to the kids themselves… but because of kid #1, I know they are.

OP here, that could be it.

Thanks to the other PPs too. I don’t think the leadership club in this case is code for behavior improvement—I know the kids and they are good kids.

Exclusive clubs are not the same as ability-based, open-through-competition clubs. Teachers inviting certain kids quietly is problematic in elementary in my opinion. Letting kids try and fail is a good exercise. But creating opportunities only for certain kids and quietly/almost secretly is quite another. I don’t know exactly what’s happening though and didn’t want to jump to conclusions.

But the point is that some of the "exclusive clubs" are things that the kids implicitly auditioned for via their classes (DCPS math bowl, DCPS Google competition, Battle of the Books, DCPS 5th Grade All Star Choir). The math instructional coach, the music teacher, etc don't need to do sham auditions, because they already know which kids can do math, read books quickly, sing well, etc. Your kid was eligible and considered, he just didn't get it.

What does “implicitly auditioned” mean? Shouldn’t the kids and parents (in elementary) be told these opportunities exist? You can’t compete for or be motivated by something if you don’t know about it. I’m perfectly fine with my kid being told you’re not good enough for this if that’s the case, but that’s not what happened.

It means teachers have access to all kinds of information about your kid and they place them into the opportunities based on that. Like at our school, the kids who score above a certain threshold on the assessments get to have a special math club, those who score above a certain number on ELA get to join a book club.

This. The teachers all know who the top kids. At our school, the group of top kids in reading had a book club while the other kids worked on reading skills. They also got to do story time to the lower grades and some other things.

Let it rest, OP. Yoir kid just didn’t make the cut. It’s OK and life. Other PP is right. The school and teachers don’t announce such things because parents will be emailing and calling ad nauseum about getting their kid in.

I just see it as a sort of differentiation in the elementary level.

I don’t doubt that teachers THINK they know this, but like everyone else they are very, very, very often fooled by confirmation bias and implicit racial and gender bias. I know that the HS math teacher who gave me a D wasn’t a very good judge of my potential, and I said as much to the assembled parents, teachers, and admins when I had a chance to say a few words at an awards banquet after being recognized for winning (during the same semester that I earned a D) a statewide math competition.

Maybe you got a D because you scored low on tests, wasn't engaged in class learning, didn't pay attention in class, didn't complete class work, homework or online work. Surely if you had done all of the above and scored 100% on assessments you would have gotten an A. But then again, seems easier to blame others.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Our school has these. My kid was invited to a Google math competition we never would have known about if they hadn’t been invited. The school fielded a small team. There is also a selective music program that works the same way — you hear about it only if your kid is invited.

There’s also Safety Patrol, which is advertised to everyone, but selective (a pretty competitive) and requires a teacher’s recommendation… but I assume you’re not talking about something set up like that.

DCPS ES Math teacher here. The Google competition only allows for one student from each grade level 3rd to 5th. At my school it was a difficult decision as we had many students well-above grade level to choose from. Then there was the team component. Students had to cooperate with each. Could these students from different grades work together? All very hard to know. In the end, we could have selected any of about 6 or 7 students. There was no test. There was no real rubric. We all chose a student who we thought could be successful. Once chosen, the teacher then spent several hours preparing the team with the materials organizers sent. On the day of the competition students,teacher and chaperones were in attendance for about 3 hours. Just wanted to give an insight into teacher perspective. A lot of work so at least three children could compete and have the experience. I wish more could attend. Some schools were unable to even compete as there were only 40 spots over two days and there are over 80 ES in DCPS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our school has these. My kid was invited to a Google math competition we never would have known about if they hadn’t been invited. The school fielded a small team. There is also a selective music program that works the same way — you hear about it only if your kid is invited.

There’s also Safety Patrol, which is advertised to everyone, but selective (a pretty competitive) and requires a teacher’s recommendation… but I assume you’re not talking about something set up like that.

DCPS ES Math teacher here. The Google competition only allows for one student from each grade level 3rd to 5th. At my school it was a difficult decision as we had many students well-above grade level to choose from. Then there was the team component. Students had to cooperate with each. Could these students from different grades work together? All very hard to know. In the end, we could have selected any of about 6 or 7 students. There was no test. There was no real rubric. We all chose a student who we thought could be successful. Once chosen, the teacher then spent several hours preparing the team with the materials organizers sent. On the day of the competition students,teacher and chaperones were in attendance for about 3 hours. Just wanted to give an insight into teacher perspective. A lot of work so at least three children could compete and have the experience. I wish more could attend. Some schools were unable to even compete as there were only 40 spots over two days and there are over 80 ES in DCPS.

Yes, people acting like there is one correct group of students to choose and a magic test that will objectively pick them are being ridiculous.