Why is there a teacher shortage?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

Can you point to the complaints above? I don’t see where I have complained. I’ve simply disagreed with you, which is not the same as complaining.

My solution… again… is to raise ALL pay to make the field more attractive. Increasing entrance requirements and evaluating teacher performance can go along with that to justify the higher pay. I have no problem with that.

English teacher, right?

Yes. Does that somehow have an impact on my argument?

Of course it does! You’re clearly unable to think objectively about compensation because you know, on average, STEM graduates have more lucrative alternative careers than English majors.

I’m beginning to think the other poster is correct regarding your reading comprehension. Multiple posters have stated that the shortage is affecting all fields. This is no longer a STEM / SPED issue. I provided specific examples, including the fact my district is down 10%, and it isn’t exclusively within STEM or SPED. I have also provided several valid, reasoned examples why a tiered pay system won’t work. Pay needs to universally increase.

Your solution to the teacher shortage appears to be “keep most teachers at their current pay because they aren’t valuable.” It is that mindset, among other insulting ones, that is driving this shortage. Contrary to your deluded belief about liberal arts majors, we are highly employable. This mass exodus to other fields is showing that.

I’m beginning to believe you are simply a troll trying to get a rise out of me.

Your posts have been carefully worded to be technically accurate, but misleading. You’re right that the shortage isn’t *exclusively* STEM and SPED, but those are where there have been most severe shortages over a sustained period of time. And while liberal arts majors may be highly employable, the pay gap between teachers and graduates with STEM degrees is greater than the pay gap between teachers and graduates with liberal arts degrees. I’m sure you know that. You’ve worded your posts to avoid directly refuting those facts. But they obviously don’t fit into the narrative that would most benefit you.

Further, even if it is true that teacher pay needs to go up across the board, that doesn't mean it only needs to go up by the same amount across the board. Such a move would almost certainly leave SPED positions hard to fill, as there would remain an incentive to teach in a different field for the same pay.

You also have not explained why teaching is uniquely unable to accommodate differentiated pay scales for different specialty areas. You seem to merely claim that it would hurt the feelings of teachers with liberal arts degrees. That may be true, but that's just as true outside of teaching, where STEM grads get paid more than liberal arts grads.

DP bc you can subjectively argue that any subject is more difficult to teach than others. I have a friend who teaches AP physics and has motivated students and it’s an easy and fun job. I teach elementary all subjects and it can be incredibly challenging due to all the behaviors. I’m sure there are stories that can also “disprove” my point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

Can you point to the complaints above? I don’t see where I have complained. I’ve simply disagreed with you, which is not the same as complaining.

My solution… again… is to raise ALL pay to make the field more attractive. Increasing entrance requirements and evaluating teacher performance can go along with that to justify the higher pay. I have no problem with that.

English teacher, right?

Yes. Does that somehow have an impact on my argument?

Of course it does! You’re clearly unable to think objectively about compensation because you know, on average, STEM graduates have more lucrative alternative careers than English majors.

I’m beginning to think the other poster is correct regarding your reading comprehension. Multiple posters have stated that the shortage is affecting all fields. This is no longer a STEM / SPED issue. I provided specific examples, including the fact my district is down 10%, and it isn’t exclusively within STEM or SPED. I have also provided several valid, reasoned examples why a tiered pay system won’t work. Pay needs to universally increase.

Your solution to the teacher shortage appears to be “keep most teachers at their current pay because they aren’t valuable.” It is that mindset, among other insulting ones, that is driving this shortage. Contrary to your deluded belief about liberal arts majors, we are highly employable. This mass exodus to other fields is showing that.

I’m beginning to believe you are simply a troll trying to get a rise out of me.

Your posts have been carefully worded to be technically accurate, but misleading. You’re right that the shortage isn’t *exclusively* STEM and SPED, but those are where there have been most severe shortages over a sustained period of time. And while liberal arts majors may be highly employable, the pay gap between teachers and graduates with STEM degrees is greater than the pay gap between teachers and graduates with liberal arts degrees. I’m sure you know that. You’ve worded your posts to avoid directly refuting those facts. But they obviously don’t fit into the narrative that would most benefit you.

Further, even if it is true that teacher pay needs to go up across the board, that doesn't mean it only needs to go up by the same amount across the board. Such a move would almost certainly leave SPED positions hard to fill, as there would remain an incentive to teach in a different field for the same pay.

You also have not explained why teaching is uniquely unable to accommodate differentiated pay scales for different specialty areas. You seem to merely claim that it would hurt the feelings of teachers with liberal arts degrees. That may be true, but that's just as true outside of teaching, where STEM grads get paid more than liberal arts grads.

DP bc you can subjectively argue that any subject is more difficult to teach than others. I have a friend who teaches AP physics and has motivated students and it’s an easy and fun job. I teach elementary all subjects and it can be incredibly challenging due to all the behaviors. I’m sure there are stories that can also “disprove” my point.

DP, the point about a tiered pay scale is not based upon the difficulty to teach. There are certainly challenges of teaching any subject, especially to certain students (no matter what subject you get, you will find some students who will excel and others who will have difficulties).

The point of the tiered pay scale is to make teaching a competitive career in the job market. Right now, recent graduates and people planning career changes with SPED or STEM degrees have more options from more lucrative career choices and employers. There are just many more opportunities with higher salary offerings for STEM and SPED degreed and trained individuals. So, to lure the STEM and SPED candidates into teaching as opposed to taking those other jobs, you have to provide a bigger incentive. There are fewer career opportunities, especially lucrative ones for candidates with liberal arts degrees, so you don't have to offer extra incentive.

I agree with the other poster that teachers need to have a pay raise across the board, but that you especially need to offer a bigger incentive boost to STEM and SPED teachers if you really want to combat the teacher shortage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

Can you point to the complaints above? I don’t see where I have complained. I’ve simply disagreed with you, which is not the same as complaining.

My solution… again… is to raise ALL pay to make the field more attractive. Increasing entrance requirements and evaluating teacher performance can go along with that to justify the higher pay. I have no problem with that.

English teacher, right?

Yes. Does that somehow have an impact on my argument?

Of course it does! You’re clearly unable to think objectively about compensation because you know, on average, STEM graduates have more lucrative alternative careers than English majors.

I’m beginning to think the other poster is correct regarding your reading comprehension. Multiple posters have stated that the shortage is affecting all fields. This is no longer a STEM / SPED issue. I provided specific examples, including the fact my district is down 10%, and it isn’t exclusively within STEM or SPED. I have also provided several valid, reasoned examples why a tiered pay system won’t work. Pay needs to universally increase.

Your solution to the teacher shortage appears to be “keep most teachers at their current pay because they aren’t valuable.” It is that mindset, among other insulting ones, that is driving this shortage. Contrary to your deluded belief about liberal arts majors, we are highly employable. This mass exodus to other fields is showing that.

I’m beginning to believe you are simply a troll trying to get a rise out of me.

Your posts have been carefully worded to be technically accurate, but misleading. You’re right that the shortage isn’t *exclusively* STEM and SPED, but those are where there have been most severe shortages over a sustained period of time. And while liberal arts majors may be highly employable, the pay gap between teachers and graduates with STEM degrees is greater than the pay gap between teachers and graduates with liberal arts degrees. I’m sure you know that. You’ve worded your posts to avoid directly refuting those facts. But they obviously don’t fit into the narrative that would most benefit you.

Further, even if it is true that teacher pay needs to go up across the board, that doesn't mean it only needs to go up by the same amount across the board. Such a move would almost certainly leave SPED positions hard to fill, as there would remain an incentive to teach in a different field for the same pay.

You also have not explained why teaching is uniquely unable to accommodate differentiated pay scales for different specialty areas. You seem to merely claim that it would hurt the feelings of teachers with liberal arts degrees. That may be true, but that's just as true outside of teaching, where STEM grads get paid more than liberal arts grads.

I haven’t been misleading at all. I’ve stated that the current shortage affects all fields, which is true. You will have a hard time refuting that right now, especially considering the current elementary vacancies.

I haven’t written about the pay discrepancy outside teaching because, frankly, I don’t see that as relevant to the issue at hand. The issue isn’t whether a STEM teacher can make more outside teaching than a Liberal Arts teacher outside of teaching. The problem is that BOTH can make more outside of teaching.

That brings us to your argument about a tiered pay scale. “Hurt feelings” is absolutely relevant. You have yet to explain why an ineffective STEM teacher who phones it in and leaves at 3 should rate a higher salary. Teaching is a unique field in which you need a specific set of qualities. You need to be able to successfully transfer knowledge to others, which is practically an art. In other professions, like a science lab I’m assuming, content and procedural knowledge reigns. That will only get you so far in teaching. When we really get to the heart of the matter, the STEM teachers and the non-STEM teachers are performing the same roles and are responsible for the same end goal: helping students engage in material so they can learn. Paying some more than others for the same job is insulting. I teach advanced courses. In no way do I deserve more than somebody in a less demanding classroom. Again: same job.

Truthfully, this is an unnecessary conversation. We are watching the exodus as we type. School systems will have to correct their compensation packages to correct for, yes, past “hurt feelings.” That’s why so many teachers are leaving right now, because of the disrespect they have endured. I posted above that I have no problem leaving this profession after 2 successful decades. Failing to see my worth, in this case by telling me I’m less valuable than my colleagues simply because of my discipline, will cause me to leave. I’ve watched plenty of my coworkers go on to higher pay and less stress. It is very appealing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

Can you point to the complaints above? I don’t see where I have complained. I’ve simply disagreed with you, which is not the same as complaining.

My solution… again… is to raise ALL pay to make the field more attractive. Increasing entrance requirements and evaluating teacher performance can go along with that to justify the higher pay. I have no problem with that.

English teacher, right?

Yes. Does that somehow have an impact on my argument?

Of course it does! You’re clearly unable to think objectively about compensation because you know, on average, STEM graduates have more lucrative alternative careers than English majors.

I’m beginning to think the other poster is correct regarding your reading comprehension. Multiple posters have stated that the shortage is affecting all fields. This is no longer a STEM / SPED issue. I provided specific examples, including the fact my district is down 10%, and it isn’t exclusively within STEM or SPED. I have also provided several valid, reasoned examples why a tiered pay system won’t work. Pay needs to universally increase.

Your solution to the teacher shortage appears to be “keep most teachers at their current pay because they aren’t valuable.” It is that mindset, among other insulting ones, that is driving this shortage. Contrary to your deluded belief about liberal arts majors, we are highly employable. This mass exodus to other fields is showing that.

I’m beginning to believe you are simply a troll trying to get a rise out of me.

Your posts have been carefully worded to be technically accurate, but misleading. You’re right that the shortage isn’t *exclusively* STEM and SPED, but those are where there have been most severe shortages over a sustained period of time. And while liberal arts majors may be highly employable, the pay gap between teachers and graduates with STEM degrees is greater than the pay gap between teachers and graduates with liberal arts degrees. I’m sure you know that. You’ve worded your posts to avoid directly refuting those facts. But they obviously don’t fit into the narrative that would most benefit you.

Further, even if it is true that teacher pay needs to go up across the board, that doesn't mean it only needs to go up by the same amount across the board. Such a move would almost certainly leave SPED positions hard to fill, as there would remain an incentive to teach in a different field for the same pay.

You also have not explained why teaching is uniquely unable to accommodate differentiated pay scales for different specialty areas. You seem to merely claim that it would hurt the feelings of teachers with liberal arts degrees. That may be true, but that's just as true outside of teaching, where STEM grads get paid more than liberal arts grads.

I haven’t been misleading at all. I’ve stated that the current shortage affects all fields, which is true. You will have a hard time refuting that right now, especially considering the current elementary vacancies.

I haven’t written about the pay discrepancy outside teaching because, frankly, I don’t see that as relevant to the issue at hand. The issue isn’t whether a STEM teacher can make more outside teaching than a Liberal Arts teacher outside of teaching. The problem is that BOTH can make more outside of teaching.

That brings us to your argument about a tiered pay scale. “Hurt feelings” is absolutely relevant. You have yet to explain why an ineffective STEM teacher who phones it in and leaves at 3 should rate a higher salary. Teaching is a unique field in which you need a specific set of qualities. You need to be able to successfully transfer knowledge to others, which is practically an art. In other professions, like a science lab I’m assuming, content and procedural knowledge reigns. That will only get you so far in teaching. When we really get to the heart of the matter, the STEM teachers and the non-STEM teachers are performing the same roles and are responsible for the same end goal: helping students engage in material so they can learn. Paying some more than others for the same job is insulting. I teach advanced courses. In no way do I deserve more than somebody in a less demanding classroom. Again: same job.

Truthfully, this is an unnecessary conversation. We are watching the exodus as we type. School systems will have to correct their compensation packages to correct for, yes, past “hurt feelings.” That’s why so many teachers are leaving right now, because of the disrespect they have endured. I posted above that I have no problem leaving this profession after 2 successful decades. Failing to see my worth, in this case by telling me I’m less valuable than my colleagues simply because of my discipline, will cause me to leave. I’ve watched plenty of my coworkers go on to higher pay and less stress. It is very appealing.

Paying some more than others to do the same job is insulting? I bet the 25-year-old teachers in your department that make a bit over half of what you do would agree with that statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

Quote where they said that. Go ahead. Liar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

All YOU are doing is complaining. Absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Money doesn't grow on trees. Pay should be based on demand so English teachers should probably be paid less so stem and sped teachers can be paid more to decrease the opening in those areas.

And then the English teachers will quit and no, no one is coming to replace them. Yo are profoundly dim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

You are incorrect. I fully support teacher evaluations. I rejected ONE proposal that put 33% on student surveys, 33% on observations, and 33% on testing. Rejecting ONE proposal does not mean I don’t support assessment of performance. As for pay, I reject pitting teachers against each other by raising some pay and not others. I believe ALL teachers deserve better compensation. Since we are facing a shortage in historically easy-to-fill positions, I don’t see how keeping certain teachers’ pay lower is a viable choice.

You seem to be ignoring the immense amount of variables that go into these decisions. Should we link type of degree to pay, or should we link performance to pay? Somebody with a PhD in Chemistry may be brilliant in their field, but may lack the skills necessary to translate that content knowledge to others. Likewise, your BA-possessing 3rd grade teacher may not be as strong in certain content, but may have the personality and skills to engage students and push them further. Who gets more pay, the one with the content knowledge or the one with the better performance? How is that measured? What about the teacher who works in a school with disadvantaged students and limited resources? Their performance may not look as impressive on paper, but they may actually move students further. What about the general Ed teacher with 25 students with IEPs in addition to 100 other students? Should they get paid less than the SPED teacher with 30 students? Pay scales that differ will cause further animosity because you CAN’T adequately account for the many, many variables. This is not a reasonable solution. The reasonable solution is what I have been saying repeatedly: raise ALL salaries. What I have heard from you is a rather insulting idea that education and liberal arts majors have already hit their worth with the current salary scales. I simply disagree.

I’m not rejecting higher pay or teacher performance assessments. I’m rejecting the very narrow and damaging ideas presented on this thread.

And your solution is. All you have done is complain

Can you point to the complaints above? I don’t see where I have complained. I’ve simply disagreed with you, which is not the same as complaining.

My solution… again… is to raise ALL pay to make the field more attractive. Increasing entrance requirements and evaluating teacher performance can go along with that to justify the higher pay. I have no problem with that.

English teacher, right?

Yes. Does that somehow have an impact on my argument?

Of course it does! You’re clearly unable to think objectively about compensation because you know, on average, STEM graduates have more lucrative alternative careers than English majors.

I’m beginning to think the other poster is correct regarding your reading comprehension. Multiple posters have stated that the shortage is affecting all fields. This is no longer a STEM / SPED issue. I provided specific examples, including the fact my district is down 10%, and it isn’t exclusively within STEM or SPED. I have also provided several valid, reasoned examples why a tiered pay system won’t work. Pay needs to universally increase.

Your solution to the teacher shortage appears to be “keep most teachers at their current pay because they aren’t valuable.” It is that mindset, among other insulting ones, that is driving this shortage. Contrary to your deluded belief about liberal arts majors, we are highly employable. This mass exodus to other fields is showing that.

I’m beginning to believe you are simply a troll trying to get a rise out of me.

+1

Argumentative troll trying to bully teachers. Just ignore her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

Quote where they said that. Go ahead. Liar.

She objected to a variety of methods for evaluating teachers without offering any method that she would accept. That’s functionally equivalent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average salary in the us is in the 40s

Teacher salaries are know when people choose the career

Teachers love to complain

The average salary for college-educated people? How about master's degree?

Except an M.Ed isn’t equivalent to an M.S. Compare apples to apples. What do you think the average English major makes?

Well? What are the numbers? Not $40k.

How much does an average college grad make right out of school?

Crickets. Guess you aren’t very good with numbers.

Here you go:
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/

The average college grad makes $59,600 in 2022.

The average for young teachers is $39,000.

That $20k gap is the issue. In fact, the average college grad even makes MORE than an experienced teacher ($51,000).


We need to pay teachers more to attract and retain good teachers. Period. There may be other contributing factors but it really all comes down to money. You get what you pay for. No money, no teachers.

[Anonymous]

How can you help kids master knowledge unless you fully grasp the content and can explain it in multiple different ways?

English is subjective. Not grammar but interpretations of literature. One student may argued one way and the other a different perspective. As long as both providing supporting evidence from the text, they are both correct.

This is not true in math and science. There is a correct answer. Either the kid is able to come up with the correct answer and show their work or they can’t. I don’t know about you but I’m not getting on a roller coaster where the engineer gets the calculation close enough.

That’s why the hard sciences are more difficult to teach than liberal arts subjects. There is no room for interpretation and there’s no ability to BS a calculation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average salary in the us is in the 40s

Teacher salaries are know when people choose the career

Teachers love to complain

The average salary for college-educated people? How about master's degree?

Except an M.Ed isn’t equivalent to an M.S. Compare apples to apples. What do you think the average English major makes?

Well? What are the numbers? Not $40k.

How much does an average college grad make right out of school?

Crickets. Guess you aren’t very good with numbers.

Here you go:
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/

The average college grad makes $59,600 in 2022.

The average for young teachers is $39,000.

That $20k gap is the issue. In fact, the average college grad even makes MORE than an experienced teacher ($51,000).


We need to pay teachers more to attract and retain good teachers. Period. There may be other contributing factors but it really all comes down to money. You get what you pay for. No money, no teachers.

As long as your union demands pay is based on longevity instead of skill we will remain here. Good teachers should be paid more, average teachers should not and bad ones should not receive step increases.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your industry needs to grow up and get with supply and demand

DC pays teachers over 100k within 5-10 years if you are good enough

Sure, but the field has really struggled with figuring out how someone is “good enough.” How do you identify the strong teachers? Is it test scores? How do you address the many variables that affect those? Is it parent reviews? Student feedback? Admin observations? It’s remarkably difficult to quantify “strong teachers.” A lot of teaching is an art. That’s why merely having a certain degree isn’t enough. Can you effectively relay your content knowledge to a child?

Also… DC is also facing shortages. Paying teachers more isn’t enough.

I'm not a teacher but the most effective thing I have seen is 1/3 test scores, 1/3 principal/supervisor Evalution and 1/3 student evaluation.

I agree pay isn't the issue. It's just more of a bad whining look of those in the profession. The salaries are public knowledge, everyone knows what they are before signing up.

I will say the scope/expectations have changed with all the extra paperwork and helicopter parents. That's a legitimate gripe and something you couldn't have predicted.

I will absolutely not accept 1/3 test scores, 1/3 evaluations, 1/3 student evaluations. Test scores: how do you account for general ed classes vs. honors classes? Special education? High FARMS rate schools? I once had to take a failing mark on *MY* test data because a student was expelled before the test and wasn’t there to take it. Why should I be held accountable for that? Evaluations: These are ridiculously subjective. All it takes is for a teacher to upset an administrator, and the score goes down. I once lost a ton of points on an eval because a student didn’t have his book on his desk. Why should I lose pay for that? The other 30 students were doing just fine. Student evaluations: I have had to give plenty of failing grades for plagiarized assignments. What type of evaluation do you think I’m going to get from those students? Some teachers are extremely permissive and therefore popular with students. Students may not learn a thing in that class, but the teacher would get high marks.

Accuse me all you want of a “bad whining look.” I’m not going to play the role of the martyr anymore. This job is challenging and this job is important. Frankly, a functioning society depends on it. I don’t care if it looks like teachers are whining. It’s time to stop being doormats.

Please quit instead of complaining just quit. Why would you stay in a job that makes you so miserable, you are toxic to your colleagues and folks that actually want to be there

When things are wrong, people need to speak up to change them. Staying silent and accepting bad treatment is why teachers are so undervalued and underpaid. This shortage, the whole topic of this thread, is happening because teachers are doing exactly what you said: leave if you are miserable. They are leaving in droves. There are recommendations throughout this thread about how to counteract that. Since teachers’ valid concerns are seen as toxic and complaining, how far do you think we are going to get in solving this teacher shortage?

Except you’re not trying to improve things; you’re just complaining. Worse, you actually seem to be pushing back on proposals that could improve things like teacher pay and respect for the profession. That's what makes you toxic.

Can you point to things I wrote that push back on teacher pay and respect for the profession? I’m very sure I have directly stated what I believe needs to be done to improve pay and respect.

I’ve spoken to the BOE multiple times in support of teachers and students. I support newer teachers and serve as a mentor. You have no idea what I’ve done to support my profession. All you’ve seen is my frustration in an anonymous forum. I’m saying what many others are thinking. Instead of dismissing me, try listening.

You seem to say we shouldn’t assess the performance of teachers. And I’m guessing you‘re the same poster the doesn’t want to pay harder-to-fill positions more than other teachers. You’re not going to improve respect for teachers as long as teachers continue to reject performance assessments. And you’re not going to improve pay unless districts have the flexibility to pay what is necessary to recruit teachers in each area.

Quote where they said that. Go ahead. Liar.

She objected to a variety of methods for evaluating teachers without offering any method that she would accept. That’s functionally equivalent.

I saw one method mentioned and one method rejected. (Rightfully so because it was ridiculous.) Where are the rest of this “variety” you mention?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average salary in the us is in the 40s

Teacher salaries are know when people choose the career

Teachers love to complain

The average salary for college-educated people? How about master's degree?

Except an M.Ed isn’t equivalent to an M.S. Compare apples to apples. What do you think the average English major makes?

Well? What are the numbers? Not $40k.

How much does an average college grad make right out of school?

Crickets. Guess you aren’t very good with numbers.

Here you go:
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/

The average college grad makes $59,600 in 2022.

The average for young teachers is $39,000.

That $20k gap is the issue. In fact, the average college grad even makes MORE than an experienced teacher ($51,000).


We need to pay teachers more to attract and retain good teachers. Period. There may be other contributing factors but it really all comes down to money. You get what you pay for. No money, no teachers.

Georgetown looked at recent college grad salaries broken down by major. Education majors did well compared to everyone except for those with a handful of STEM-related degrees.
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The average salary in the us is in the 40s

Teacher salaries are know when people choose the career

Teachers love to complain

The average salary for college-educated people? How about master's degree?

Except an M.Ed isn’t equivalent to an M.S. Compare apples to apples. What do you think the average English major makes?

Well? What are the numbers? Not $40k.

How much does an average college grad make right out of school?

Crickets. Guess you aren’t very good with numbers.

Here you go:
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/average-salary-college-graduates/

The average college grad makes $59,600 in 2022.

The average for young teachers is $39,000.

That $20k gap is the issue. In fact, the average college grad even makes MORE than an experienced teacher ($51,000).


We need to pay teachers more to attract and retain good teachers. Period. There may be other contributing factors but it really all comes down to money. You get what you pay for. No money, no teachers.

As long as your union demands pay is based on longevity instead of skill we will remain here. Good teachers should be paid more, average teachers should not and bad ones should not receive step increases.

IDGAF about teacher unions. We need to pay teachers - at all levels - more to attract and retain good teachers. When an average college grad makes more than an experienced teacher then you know it’s not sustainable.

Raise taxes. Pay teachers more. Support our kids’ education.

-STEM parent