Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Speak for yourself. My husband wanted me out earning $$$$ and also doing most of the second shift stuff. I would rather have been a SAHM
Then you have a husband problem. He should have absolutely assumed an equal share of that responsibility at home. You should expect nothing less from him.
All these snarky posts talking about “women having it all” are perpetuating the problem. No one ever uses that term when talking about men. A family should have an equal power dynamic.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Nobody is saying that. Just stop with this false narrative.
What men are actually manipulating women to think is that the only way to be valuable to society is to earn a wage. Traditional “women’s work” is worthless in a capitalist system. If it simply must be done it should be compensated with as low a wage as possible (see: every single caregiving profession dominated by women). Capitalism is inherently patriarchal.
That’s not to say that women shouldn’t earn a wage if they want, or that women shouldn’t go after high paying prestigious careers if they want to. But all of the un/undereducated or unpaid women doing all of the mundane and tedious tasks that make this system possible in the first place aren’t “worthless” and they are absolutely contributing to society.
I don’t think many (if any) pps said it’s “worthless”, we just don’t think a sahm of teens is actually that busy during the day. Which is what the thread is about, not whatever you keep trying to twist it into.
No, I actually think that equating being “busy” as a sign of virtue is part of the same capitalist disease. Nobody asks WOHMs to account for every minute of their day, and as most of us know, the average worker bee has plenty of downtime depending on the day/season/job. But they’re “working” while doing nothing (or very little) at those time so it “counts”.
So tell op to tell her kid that instead of blaming working moms for the downfall of society 🙄
What are you talking about?
No one is blaming working moms for anything. This thread, as per usual, was started by a SAHM to ask a specific question and a bunch of insecure women started demanding OP justify her life choices, agreeing with her rude teen’s disrespectful attitude, then started piling on some other SAHM for not being sufficiently “busy”, and went from there to discuss how women who don’t get their asses back into paid employment as soon as their kids are school age are non-contributing, education wasting, vaccine denying, MAGA loving tradwives.
As soon as these insecure WOHMs received the tiniest pushback as to their own alleged contributions to society and their internalized misogyny, they cried foul about the “vitriol”, their hurt feelings, women not supporting other women’s life choices, etc.
(And I hate that this has to be explicitly said, but please note that my characterization of some WOHMs who chose to participate in this thread as insecure does not mean that I believe that all WOHMs are insecure.)
Someone literally blamed working moms for all the poorly behaved kids in the world and thought the world would be better off without women in industry. It’s disgusting and regressive and definitely smacks of maga antivaxxer tradwives. GTFOH trying to rewrite the thread, we can all read it in black and white 🙄
So op said her kid said something rude about her not working and somehow that turned into pps saying that anyone who doesn’t stay home eats only fast food, has a dirty house with kids wearing dirty clothing, which turned into a pp insulting physicians, editors, and calling people idiots, dumb, etc. *some* pps are certainly being incredibly rude to wohms.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Nobody is saying that. Just stop with this false narrative.
What men are actually manipulating women to think is that the only way to be valuable to society is to earn a wage. Traditional “women’s work” is worthless in a capitalist system. If it simply must be done it should be compensated with as low a wage as possible (see: every single caregiving profession dominated by women). Capitalism is inherently patriarchal.
That’s not to say that women shouldn’t earn a wage if they want, or that women shouldn’t go after high paying prestigious careers if they want to. But all of the un/undereducated or unpaid women doing all of the mundane and tedious tasks that make this system possible in the first place aren’t “worthless” and they are absolutely contributing to society.
I don’t think many (if any) pps said it’s “worthless”, we just don’t think a sahm of teens is actually that busy during the day. Which is what the thread is about, not whatever you keep trying to twist it into.
No, I actually think that equating being “busy” as a sign of virtue is part of the same capitalist disease. Nobody asks WOHMs to account for every minute of their day, and as most of us know, the average worker bee has plenty of downtime depending on the day/season/job. But they’re “working” while doing nothing (or very little) at those time so it “counts”.
I feel like we have an anti-capitalist bot on here. Very odd.
Anonymous wrote:Someone literally blamed working moms for all the poorly behaved kids in the world and thought the world would be better off without women in industry. It’s disgusting and regressive and definitely smacks of maga antivaxxer tradwives. GTFOH trying to rewrite the thread, we can all read it in black and white 🙄
No. You’re illiterate if that’s how you read that discussion.
Anonymous wrote:So op said her kid said something rude about her not working and somehow that turned into pps saying that anyone who doesn’t stay home eats only fast food, has a dirty house with kids wearing dirty clothing, which turned into a pp insulting physicians, editors, and calling people idiots, dumb, etc. *some* pps are certainly being incredibly rude to wohms.
What is this obessession with “productivity” and it somehow having any bearing on a person’s inherent worth???
These comments literally say (with an obvious negative tone and judgment) things like “SAHMs are not inherently productive members of society” and after several years not working they are “useless on the market.”
Like who cares??? We’re sentient bags of meat floating on a rock in space and no one knows how or why we are here. Maybe you have to work or choose to work but it doesn’t make you a better person or more useful member of society.
We forget how important having a community is. Capitalism really does a number of people.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Nobody is saying that. Just stop with this false narrative.
What men are actually manipulating women to think is that the only way to be valuable to society is to earn a wage. Traditional “women’s work” is worthless in a capitalist system. If it simply must be done it should be compensated with as low a wage as possible (see: every single caregiving profession dominated by women). Capitalism is inherently patriarchal.
That’s not to say that women shouldn’t earn a wage if they want, or that women shouldn’t go after high paying prestigious careers if they want to. But all of the un/undereducated or unpaid women doing all of the mundane and tedious tasks that make this system possible in the first place aren’t “worthless” and they are absolutely contributing to society.
I don’t think many (if any) pps said it’s “worthless”, we just don’t think a sahm of teens is actually that busy during the day. Which is what the thread is about, not whatever you keep trying to twist it into.
No, I actually think that equating being “busy” as a sign of virtue is part of the same capitalist disease. Nobody asks WOHMs to account for every minute of their day, and as most of us know, the average worker bee has plenty of downtime depending on the day/season/job. But they’re “working” while doing nothing (or very little) at those time so it “counts”.
I feel like we have an anti-capitalist bot on here. Very odd.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
I agree this is just such a dumb statement. The only reason anyone can be titans of industry is because there is someone emptying the trash and cleaning the offices after everyone goes home. There is someone doing the toil of fixing their lunch so they don’t have to prepare their own food, there is someone doing the catering so they can have big events . There is someone, making a lot less than them, driving them all around town and there is someone, making a lot less than them, taking their bags at the airport and checking them into hotels and cleaning these hotels. We are totes fine when men use these laborers but when women do it, you should be home doing it yourself.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Nobody is saying that. Just stop with this false narrative.
What men are actually manipulating women to think is that the only way to be valuable to society is to earn a wage. Traditional “women’s work” is worthless in a capitalist system. If it simply must be done it should be compensated with as low a wage as possible (see: every single caregiving profession dominated by women). Capitalism is inherently patriarchal.
That’s not to say that women shouldn’t earn a wage if they want, or that women shouldn’t go after high paying prestigious careers if they want to. But all of the un/undereducated or unpaid women doing all of the mundane and tedious tasks that make this system possible in the first place aren’t “worthless” and they are absolutely contributing to society.
I don’t think many (if any) pps said it’s “worthless”, we just don’t think a sahm of teens is actually that busy during the day. Which is what the thread is about, not whatever you keep trying to twist it into.
No, I actually think that equating being “busy” as a sign of virtue is part of the same capitalist disease. Nobody asks WOHMs to account for every minute of their day, and as most of us know, the average worker bee has plenty of downtime depending on the day/season/job. But they’re “working” while doing nothing (or very little) at those time so it “counts”.
I feel like we have an anti-capitalist bot on here. Very odd.
I’m a SAHM and my middle child is 13. He has been a moody jerk lately. At times, he has made jerky comments like asking me to bring him something at school in the middle of the day. I may have plans and can’t and he makes a rude comment about why I can’t bring it. I guess the difference is my 13yo thinks I have a good gig and lucky to be able to stay home and live a leisurely life.
Your kids are behaving very disrespectfully toward their mother. No child should ever utter words like this toward their parent. I work but if my kids ever speak to me like this, their bum is getting a visit from Mr. Slipper. Not acceptable at all.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
I agree this is just such a dumb statement. The only reason anyone can be titans of industry is because there is someone emptying the trash and cleaning the offices after everyone goes home. There is someone doing the toil of fixing their lunch so they don’t have to prepare their own food, there is someone doing the catering so they can have big events . There is someone, making a lot less than them, driving them all around town and there is someone, making a lot less than them, taking their bags at the airport and checking them into hotels and cleaning these hotels. We are totes fine when men use these laborers but when women do it, you should be home doing it yourself.
Absolutely ridiculous way of looking at things.
That’s not at all what I’m saying. I’m saying that kind of work is devalued and that’s why so many women on DCUM look down on SAHMs. On the whole I don’t think men are nearly as hard on SAHMs as DCUM WOHMs are.
In a fair world, both men and women would not have to spend so much time away from their families, and would be able to contribute more at home.
Anonymous wrote:Well... what do you do all day when they are in school? They are teens - go back to work.
This is very insulting. Let me enlighten you:
My kids (one elementary and one middle school) have different school start and end times so it ends up they are both gone 6 hours on school days. Here is what I “do all day” as you so condescendingly put it:
Hour 1: clean up kitchen, do dishes, start first of many loads of laundry, tidy house (I clean my own house so every day I do a deep clean in one room/bathroom)
Hour 2: walk dog, switch out laundry, continue any unfinished cleaning
Hour 3: grocery store (one of 4 places I shop)
Hoot 4: put groceries away, start prepping dinner, switch out laundry
Hour 5: make appointments for family, respond to all kid-related emails (sports, bday invites, doc appointments)
Hour 6: prep sports bags/clothes/car snacks/ water bottles for kids afternoon activities
Then I go pick up my kids and my SECOND SHIFT of parenting begins. This lasts about 6-7 hours, driving them to activities, walking dog again at those locations, then at home making dinner, feeding everyone, cleaning up kitchen, helping with homework, overseeing bedtime routine, doing the social-emotional bonding they both want every night, until actual bedtime.
So this is how I look at it, and it’s how my husband describes my life: I basically have 2 part time jobs, totaling 14 hours of total work. The first is running the household and the second is the hands-on parenting.
Hope this helps everyone reading this thread to understand that SAHPs deserve respect. This is one of the hardest jobs in the world. What other job can you think of that comes with no training, very little resources or support, no sick days, no days off, no pay, and very little appreciation?
So you cook, clean, do laundry and grocery shop. Most working people do this too. Like, I don’t get why you think this is such an accomplishment?
DP. I don't understand why this is such a debate or a competition about who's better or does more. Nobody is saying all the things a SAHP does can't get done by parents working outside the home. Someone asked what the SAHM does all day and she (and others) answered the question. Why? Because working parents don't seem to believe that SAHPs are busy at all and just sit around half the day.
Goody for you for doing it all. And good for the SAHPs who do all that they do. What many SAHPs here aren't including is all their volunteer activities around their kids' schools and activities, which can be as much as part-time to full-time-work-equivalent.
It's not "a debate" about who does more. That's obvious. Not up for debate. It isn't the SAHMommies.
Only in the US do people want a medal for bragging about how busy they are.
Leisure time is valued in most of the world
This is not about being busy. This is about how a capable, well educated woman can and ought to contribute to society beyond her nuclear family once the children are teenagers and there are no extenuating circumstances. Frankly, none of the excuses is particularly compelling. And the attempts to justify SAHMs under these circumstances are laughable. Just admit that you care more about the lifestyle than you care about contributing to society, that your higher ed degree was a bit of a waste on you, that you don't care that much about setting an example to your own kids about women holding professional status in the workforce, and that you are ultimately not that troubled by the economic risks of SAH. It's the utter intellectual dishonesty of SAHMs that amuse me.
DP here and correct, I only care about myself and my family. Don’t you? My working or not working has zero impact on society. That’s true for most careers, unless you’re a world-renowned physician or researcher or something at that level. Which I certainly am not, and I’m assuming you aren’t either just by virtue of the fact that there are very few people in those fields.
How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men, etc., etc. 99% of these professions are not "world-renowned," but I'd like to think that you are glad that you live in a world where millions women have rejected your attitude that their working has zero impact on society.
To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP. Have you been in a public school lately? Behavior is bananas. Largely because of poor parenting at home.
And here we have it, the white SAHM who voted for Trump because we need to make America great again...
Tradwives of the world actively making it worse for women everywhere. Sigh. It’s sad that people actually believe the world would be better off without women in professional positions.
I mean, women will never get ahead because of catty women like you always tearing other women down. Women who shit on SAHMs or housewives are the ultimate “pick me!” girls, but you have your heads so far up your own asses you’ll never even consider contemplating the internalized misogyny which drives your worldview.
Lean into that patriarchy, girlboss. Make the rich male overlords of the world richer and then act shocked and pretend it’s the housewives holding women down
Huh?? Like me? Did you read the post from the pp saying that the world would be better without women doctors, lawyers or business owners? What is wrong with you? THAT is patriarchy, you seem very confused as to the definition.
+1. There are some very misguided posters on this thread who don't seem to grasp the concepts of misogyny or patriarchy.
1. The poster never said or implied that the “world would be better without women doctors, lawyers, or business owners”. (Although I think the world would be significantly better with fewer lawyers of any sex, but that’s neither here nor there.) You’re both putting words into her mouth to fit your narrative. I believe that’s called a straw man.
2. Capitalism IS patriarchy. There is no divorcing the two. Perhaps if you had some free time to read, think, and reflect on big ideas you would understand that.
You must need glasses, that’s what she wrote. If it’s you trying to back track now, it’s not working out very well.
Your condescending comment about having time to read is duly noted, very apropos for this conversation. You make sahms not only look like lazy liars who fluff up tasks to fill their day, but also rude and lacking tact with speaking to women who actually work. Good luck with that.
“To be honest, I think kids would be less of mess, if more families had a SAHP.”
This is what she wrote. You’re pretending that statement means she thinks that the world would be better off if women didn’t hold professional positions. (I realize that the person asking her a question posed a rather sensational scenario in which all doctors, lawyers, and businessfolk are men, but at no point did this woman, or any woman in this thread, agree that such a scenario would be best. Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the natural flow of conversation?)
You are either being disingenuous or you are not very bright. Perhaps you need a remedial English class before you bother reading for pleasure or your own personal edification.
(Finally, it’s odd you assume I am a SAHM. It’s even more odd that you expect anyone to address you with tact or respect when you are participating in this random thread for the sole purpose of putting other women down.)
-How would you feel if we went back to the 1950s and all your doctors were men, all your professors were men, all the lawyers were men, all the bankers were men, all the business owners were men
-kids would be less of a mess
So this person thinks it’s worth the trade off to eliminate professional women because they aren’t raising their kids well enough. And you are defending them, and calling other women “pick mes” and “girlboss” and being condescending and rude to other posters who don’t agree with you. I think we found the misogynist and it’s not the people defending women’s right to work…
Asked and answered. You’re completely unable to follow the flow of a normal conversation.
And now you’re defending women’s “right” to work (in your feeble mind), when what you’ve been advocating for is an *obligation* to work *for pay*, because some part of you knows your high paying, prestigious job is only possible on the backs of “lesser” women you pay a pittance to do all of the tedious tasks of daily family life which you feel are beneath you. GMAFB.
DP. This needs to be said more, and louder. Women who are mothers are able to have high power careers exactly because lower status women are there to use.
NP. This ludicrous statement is why we won’t see a woman president anytime soon. No one would ever say this about a man. The vitriol by women towards other women who are successful outside the home, I will never understand. It’s sad and just gross.
This has nothing to do with men.
Why is it ludicrous? Is it not true? That UMC white women having “intellectual” careers and “having it all” would not be possible but for the poor and mostly black and brown women who work in childcare, cleaning houses, delivering groceries, and everything else that makes this life possible? Do you really not see the hypocrisy?
The hypocrisy is that you don’t ascribe any of this “responsibility” to the successful man. It’s honestly unbelievable you cannot see this. For those to choose to outsource Childcare, house cleaning and grocery shopping it is necessary because the other partner (usually a man) cannot take up tasks because he is pursuing a career outside the home too.
Thanks for proving my point though, much appreciated.
+1. I just posted and could not agree with you more. It is astonishing that PP cannot comprehend that husbands and fathers, as much as wives and mothers, are part of this equation as well.
PP. Exactly! This skewed world view is making me feel pretty hopeless for our future generations. I remember being so proud that my mom and dad both had careers and shared household chores while I was growing up. I cannot believe women can’t see it’s actually men who are manipulating them into thinking that the only way to be a good mom is to stay home with kids.
Speak for yourself. My husband wanted me out earning $$$$ and also doing most of the second shift stuff. I would rather have been a SAHM
Then you have a husband problem. He should have absolutely assumed an equal share of that responsibility at home. You should expect nothing less from him.
All these snarky posts talking about “women having it all” are perpetuating the problem. No one ever uses that term when talking about men. A family should have an equal power dynamic.
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