TJ admissions decision - repercussions for Class of 2026

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

FCPS doesn't say it, but the individual school teams definitely have it as part of their missions that they make public on social media sites, etc. And the schools sanction those missions on an individual basis by allowing them to make those statements public.

TJ as a school does no such thing. They individual academic teams that they have make winning a part of their mission, but the school does not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

FCPS doesn't say it, but the individual school teams definitely have it as part of their missions that they make public on social media sites, etc. And the schools sanction those missions on an individual basis by allowing them to make those statements public.

TJ as a school does no such thing. They individual academic teams that they have make winning a part of their mission, but the school does not.

DP. TJ's mission as a Governor's school is the following: The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.

The implication is that TJ is supposed to serve truly gifted kids whose needs can't be met at their base schools. It isn't to provide a leg up to URMs who haven't distinguished themselves academically. The current TJ process is failing to meet its mission, because it has no mechanism for identifying kids whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age level peers. High GPA in watered down FCPS classes + Algebra I by 8th + responses to very generic essays will identify vaguely above average kids.

If the mission of a Governor's school were to promote diversity and expose underrepresented groups to advanced opportunities, then the current system would be fine. It's clear, though, that Governor's schools are intended to be gifted schools for the highest achievers in the district. For this mission, TJ should be selecting the strongest, highest achieving kids, regardless of race, economic status, location in the county, or any other experience factors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

FCPS doesn't say it, but the individual school teams definitely have it as part of their missions that they make public on social media sites, etc. And the schools sanction those missions on an individual basis by allowing them to make those statements public.

TJ as a school does no such thing. They individual academic teams that they have make winning a part of their mission, but the school does not.

DP. TJ's mission as a Governor's school is the following: The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.

The implication is that TJ is supposed to serve truly gifted kids whose needs can't be met at their base schools. It isn't to provide a leg up to URMs who haven't distinguished themselves academically. The current TJ process is failing to meet its mission, because it has no mechanism for identifying kids whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age level peers. High GPA in watered down FCPS classes + Algebra I by 8th + responses to very generic essays will identify vaguely above average kids.

If the mission of a Governor's school were to promote diversity and expose underrepresented groups to advanced opportunities, then the current system would be fine. It's clear, though, that Governor's schools are intended to be gifted schools for the highest achievers in the district. For this mission, TJ should be selecting the strongest, highest achieving kids, regardless of race, economic status, location in the county, or any other experience factors.

I mean, that's a nice pull quote, but it ignores the reality that there are a far greater number of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their peers than you think there are. What has happened in recent years is that parents with resources and motivation have figured out how to make their children stand out in the crowd. A standardized exam that they can pay for strategies to defeat is one way that they can do that - and as an added bonus, reduce the likelihood that their kid will go to school with poor kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

FCPS doesn't say it, but the individual school teams definitely have it as part of their missions that they make public on social media sites, etc. And the schools sanction those missions on an individual basis by allowing them to make those statements public.

TJ as a school does no such thing. They individual academic teams that they have make winning a part of their mission, but the school does not.

DP. TJ's mission as a Governor's school is the following: The Virginia Governor's School Program has been designed to assist divisions as they meet the needs of a small population of students whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age-level peers. The foundation of the Virginia Governor's School Program centers on best practices in the field of gifted education and the presentation of advanced content to able learners.

The implication is that TJ is supposed to serve truly gifted kids whose needs can't be met at their base schools. It isn't to provide a leg up to URMs who haven't distinguished themselves academically. The current TJ process is failing to meet its mission, because it has no mechanism for identifying kids whose learning levels are remarkably different from their age level peers. High GPA in watered down FCPS classes + Algebra I by 8th + responses to very generic essays will identify vaguely above average kids.

If the mission of a Governor's school were to promote diversity and expose underrepresented groups to advanced opportunities, then the current system would be fine. It's clear, though, that Governor's schools are intended to be gifted schools for the highest achievers in the district. For this mission, TJ should be selecting the strongest, highest achieving kids, regardless of race, economic status, location in the county, or any other experience factors.

It's really unfortunate that all these prep classes have made average students appear gifted and muddled the selection process os much in recent years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Links? What are those metrics and why don't they apply to sports?
The studies I know about say things like diversity increases creativity, prepares you for the workforce which may be more diverse than your school, creates a culturally respectful environment.
Those things are important in all school settings including athletics. Imagine a math team that is all one race and students of other races tried out but did not make it. How would people react then?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

A picture prominently displayed on fcps website proves that fcps is eagerly showing off its star students. If fcps had no interest in winning academic competitions, that picture would not have made that first page.

PUBLIC education doesn't mean that one should not strive for the best. And this is about EQUITY in ALL aspects of education (including school team sports). If you want equity, let's have it in all categories, not just whatever benefits you or your narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

A picture prominently displayed on fcps website proves that fcps is eagerly showing off its star students. If fcps had no interest in winning academic competitions, that picture would not have made that first page.

PUBLIC education doesn't mean that one should not strive for the best. And this is about EQUITY in ALL aspects of education (including school team sports). If you want equity, let's have it in all categories, not just whatever benefits you or your narrative.

That's the key phrase. Acceptance into a school isn't the same as acceptance onto a team or entry into a competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

A picture prominently displayed on fcps website proves that fcps is eagerly showing off its star students. If fcps had no interest in winning academic competitions, that picture would not have made that first page.

PUBLIC education doesn't mean that one should not strive for the best. And this is about EQUITY in ALL aspects of education (including school team sports). If you want equity, let's have it in all categories, not just whatever benefits you or your narrative.

That's the key phrase. Acceptance into a school isn't the same as acceptance onto a team or entry into a competition.

Who says so? It's all about trying to get a spot when there is more interest than space available. Students try out, apply and the "best" are selected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

A picture prominently displayed on fcps website proves that fcps is eagerly showing off its star students. If fcps had no interest in winning academic competitions, that picture would not have made that first page.

PUBLIC education doesn't mean that one should not strive for the best. And this is about EQUITY in ALL aspects of education (including school team sports). If you want equity, let's have it in all categories, not just whatever benefits you or your narrative.

That's the key phrase. Acceptance into a school isn't the same as acceptance onto a team or entry into a competition.

Who says so? It's all about trying to get a spot when there is more interest than space available. Students try out, apply and the "best" are selected.

That seems like a sad way to look at high school, but you do you

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In addition, 20% of the FCPS teachers must be Asian to properly reflect the student population. 20% of the County employees must be Asians to reflect the demographics of the County.
20% of the County contracts and grants must go to Asians and Asian groups. It is not equitable that virtually 0% goes to Asians and Asian groups.

Let's not forget all the sport teams need to have 20% asian representation. It doesn't matter if there are better qualified athletes. Asian students deserve 20% of the spots in the name of equity

Why? The goal of an athletic team is to win games. There is no goal that TJ has that is expressly competitive in nature. The fact that it has been adjudged one of the top high schools in the country doesn't make that its goal.

Its goal is to educate talented students with an eye towards preparing them for a STEM or STEM-adjacent career. I would almost argue that the STEM community writ large would be better served by TJ taking really bright kids who are not sure what they want to do when they grow up and inspiring them to pursue STEM, rather than just taking kids whose parents have already decided that they will be doctors or engineers and giving them cool toys to play with for four years... especially when those kids are probably going to get to play with those cool toys in the form of summer internships anyway.

Oh boy, so many assumptions here! First, as a PP mentioned, team sports' main goals is to develop sportsmanship, encourage fitness,... Just as you said that TJ's original goal was not to become a top high school, sport teams were not originally created with the goal of winning games. Also, assuming that asian kids aren't as strong as others in some sports, would it not be good to allow them to participate? This will certainly benefit stronger athletes ie teach them empathy, the benefits of diversity and all that good stuff that many are saying TJ would benefit from if its students were more diverse. Lastly, why would you think that admitting asians in sport teams will cause the teams to become weaker? Maybe it's about time you look into your own prejudice and give some of these asian kids a chance to prove themselves just as you are advocating for the other minority groups to be given a chance to prove themselves academcally.

Lots to unpack here. Obviously there are a significant number of goals when it comes to scholastic sports that go above and beyond winning games, but the tryout process is designed to select players that will help the team win games. Asian students have an opportunity in those tryout process to show that they will be contributing members of the teams just like anyone else has, but coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games. And that's the key difference that people don't seem to understand. There are intramural opportunities for students to achieve many of the same ancillary goals that were mentioned earlier regarding physical fitness and camaraderie, but when it comes to interscholastic sports, the goal is to compete and win. If there are Asian players who can help teams win, I promise you coaches will select them - and they do in many sports.

That sort of goal does not exist with respect to the TJ admissions process. And that's fundamentally why the analogy doesn't work. You're trying to create equivalence where there is none.

If the "coaches select players with an eye towards who will help them win games" then they are not upholding the county mission statement for team sports. Maybe the selection process also needs an intervention from the school board like it did with TJ. I know Asian kids are more than welcome to try out, just like URM are welcome to apply for admission to TJ, but if one believes in diversity, then they can't pick and choose which departments benefit from diversity and which ones can do away with it. Why aren't you willing to lower the quality of a sport team but willing the lower the quality of a high school? (just for the sake of arguments, I am assuming like many PPs above that lowering admission standards will lower a sport team's strength as well as a high school academic strength).

Say what you want about upholding the mission statement, but a good way for a coach to get fired is to lose too many games.

But again - you're trying to create an equivalence between sports and academics, and there simply isn't one.

There is no end of peer-reviewed research that confirms that legitimate experiential diversity in the academic environment benefits students across a wide range of metrics. That is a generally accepted truth in academia - so much so that citation in this case would be akin to proving that 2+2=4. There is no such research that legitimate experiential diversity improves sports performance metrics. And besides, the best way to create more diversity in scholastic athletic teams is to have a more diverse student body to choose from anyways. TJ's athletic teams are a heck of a lot more Asian than they were 15 years ago, that's for sure.

Again, coaches being fired for losing too many games is a result of the school board not willing to disrupt the status quo and demand the diversity in sports that they are demanding of TJ. If every team needs to meet a racial quota, then its relative performance compared to other teams (that also need to meet the quota) won't change much and a particular team won't lose/win more games than it used to before the quota takes effects. The only difference is now we have diversity in sport teams. Wouldn't that be great?

You don't see an equivalence between sports and academics because you're not willing

No… I don’t see an equivalence because there is no equivalence. There is no aspect of TJ’s mission that includes winning any contest or competition.

Show me where fcps says that school team sports' mission is to win competitions. The goal is to increase fitness, foster camaraderie, sportsmanship...and winning/losing is a result of the competitive nature of the activity. Of course, everyone wants to win. Same for any high school. The goal is to educate, but we also have school rankings and academic teams. None of them will openly say that they make it their mission to win competitions or be #1 but it sure is an unspoken goal just like in school sports.

Go into any high school and look for the years that teams had great camaraderie or the school records for sportsmanship. Now look for the years that the teams won state championships and the list of school record holders. My guess is that you will have a much easier time finding one than the other.

Go to the fcps websites and right there on the main page, displayed for everyone to see is a picture of a TJ student and her award-winning research. Now tell me fcps is not in the business of "winning" academically. I am not arguing that sport teams don't want to win. EVERYONE (sport teams, schools, academic teams, you, me) wants to win. Mission statements do not necessarily reflect that desire for the top spot but it is there nevertheless (as evidenced with your reference to teams' websites that are not by the way updated and maintained by fcps). So I call it BS when someone is telling me that racial quota should not apply to sport teams because their goals is to win so they need to select the candidates on a merit basis but a selective school needs a racial quota because nowhere in its mission statement it makes a reference to winning competition

You actually think a picture of someone on a website proves that sports are like academics? Honestly just give it up already. This is about PUBLIC education.

A picture prominently displayed on fcps website proves that fcps is eagerly showing off its star students. If fcps had no interest in winning academic competitions, that picture would not have made that first page.

PUBLIC education doesn't mean that one should not strive for the best. And this is about EQUITY in ALL aspects of education (including school team sports). If you want equity, let's have it in all categories, not just whatever benefits you or your narrative.

That's the key phrase. Acceptance into a school isn't the same as acceptance onto a team or entry into a competition.

Who says so? It's all about trying to get a spot when there is more interest than space available. Students try out, apply and the "best" are selected.

That seems like a sad way to look at high school, but you do you

Seems to be also a sad way to look at athletics, yet you don't seem to have a problem with it. Oh well you do you

[Anonymous]

Counts of Grade 9 students taking a Geometry class at TJ for the past 5 years.

2017-18: 10

2018-19: 20

2019-20: 15

2020-21: 11

2021-22: 136

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Counts of Grade 9 students taking a Geometry class at TJ for the past 5 years.

2017-18: 10

2018-19: 20

2019-20: 15

2020-21: 11

2021-22: 136

58 Withdrawals

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Counts of Grade 9 students taking a Geometry class at TJ for the past 5 years.

2017-18: 10

2018-19: 20

2019-20: 15

2020-21: 11

2021-22: 136

58 Withdrawals

Wow, for real? Are these numbers published anywhere?