Study: "Discussions of D.C. public school options in an online forum" (yes, this one)

[Anonymous]

"Collier, the 2011 valedictorian at Ballou Senior High in Southeast Washington, said the first thing she noticed when she arrived at Penn State University was how intently her fellow students paid attention during class.

“It was like, ‘Wow, everyone’s on the same page and everyone wants to learn,’ ” Collier said. “At Ballou, it wasn’t like that at all. I was always trying to get the students quiet.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/graduates-from-low-performing-dc-schools-face-tough-college-road/2013/06/16/e4c769a0-d49a-11e2-a73e-826d299ff459_story.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious - because the DCUM community is a "group of largely white, largely affluent posters who primarily live in largely white, largely affluent neighborhoods", it doesn't matter whether individual participants are racist or anti-racist or whatever. It's not a "bunch of segregationists" or a "bunch of Klan members" (jsteele's characterization of how the study portrays DCUM) but is a community segregated from other communities in DC by race, class, and geography.

jsteele knows that DCUM is a forum for rich white people who live in rich white neighborhoods and seems to be 100% fine with that, since he keeps bringing it up and acting like it's no big deal.

(OK one person noticed this: "you know your demo because that is what you sell to advertisers. and the fact that your site isn't inclusive is what they are studying")

The problem isn't the individuals. It's the community. And it's the community jsteele wants. Maybe that's why he's so defensive about and feels personally targeted by a study that exposes his community's failings - it ends up being an accurate study of his failings.

Maybe I should be nicer and protect jsteele's feelings so that it's easier for him to hear.

But I have enough respect for his ability to act like an adult and think about the idea of taking action to make DCUM be a forum that is for the entire city of Washington DC and not only its rich white neighborhoods.

I love when posters are honest and treat me like the adult that I am. So, thank you PP. I appreciate your post. Since you were honest, I will also be honest. The DCUM community is heavily represented by white, affluent, well-educated women. Of course that is not representative of the entire community, but that describes the core. And, you know what? I am very proud of that community. I have always said that I will put the DCUM community up against any other online community. My pride is not due to their race, wealth, gender, or education, though I appreciate all of those things. I am proud because for over 15 years they have consistently and ably responded to complete strangers with whom they may have nothing in common to offer support and assistance. They are funny, entertaining, extremely helpful, and, let's face it, sometimes really big pains in the ass. But, this is a great community and nobody will change my mind about that.

You are right about another thing. Our audience is an extremely marketable demographic. But, do you know what I did to create that audience? Nothing. Do you know what I do to maintain it? Nothing. Let's be honest. I am male. I don't make law partner money and am not in the same socio-economic class as many of our users (though I make more than I deserve). I am rude and frequently piss off our users. There is no good explanation for how I could create such a community which I hope makes it easy to believe the truth, which is that I didn't. I'm just the guy who serves the drinks and washes the glasses and occasionally tosses out a disruptive customer.

I've have made efforts to attract other voices to the forum. But, we don't have an advertising budget and never have had. We do no marketing. This community was created organically, more often in spite of me than because of me. I wish it would grow to include others and I think it has, though not to the extent that I would like.

I know that it is pretty common to think "Jeff just has to do this and that will happen", but that doesn't even work with my kids, let alone an audience of hundreds of thousands. If I really could control segregation in the District, I would be selling corporate sponsorships for weekly school desegregation's. You know, "This week's school desegregation brought to you by AT&T. Enroll your white, upper class kid in this Title 1 school. It's safe, secure, and reliable, just like AT&T's mobile service." But, things don't work that way.

I am happy to work with you to help expand our user base. Just let me know how I can help.

this is admirable.

it's hard to change the demographics of an established online community but definitely not impossible. expanding the demographics is the easiest way fortunately.

that said some existing members of the community will leave and you have to decide whether you're comfortable with that. seriously, you have decide whether your pride in the community of white, affluent, well-educated women you've fostered is something you can give up or put aside and say something like "i'm proud of what was accomplished, now it's time to try something new."

my honest recommendation would be for you to start by challenging your community to discuss how and whether to change. and then you publicly decide what course of action to take.

and maybe it's too late but instead of retreating into a defensive crouch about a report that as you said pretty much pointed out the obvious you could like ask the author for her expert advice. unless you know of anyone else who bothered to do a systematic quantitative analysis of your community. i understand why you feel hurt by saying that the community you're proud of isn't pretty. but what is?

(side point: it's too bad and not helpful tho not a surprise that most of the media coverage is "look how terrible DCUM is" when the report clearly doesn't care about DCUM but about the way that privileged white parents talk about schools and used DCUM as a window into that. the alternative would be to bug playgrounds or monitor private Facebook groups or conduct thousands of long-form surveys and interviews. it would have been nicer for the authors to explicitly thank you and praise DCUM for being a valuable resource for research by being a public forum.)

or if you're too angry still about the report (also i can imagine the author might not be inclined to chat with you now that you've demeaned her professionalism) there are tons of folks here in DC who are experts on questions like this. it's easy to find people who are critical of DCUM who aren't hiding behind anonymity (like me, ha). you could ask them "right now DCUM is a community built around a core of white, affluent, well-educated women. what would make DCUM feel like a forum for all of DC? do you have any ideas? questions to ask? or you can simply share your own experience with my site."

and yeah say you succeeded in making DCUM a representative forum for all of DC it wouldn't solve racism or segregation. but it'd be another thing for you to be proud of i hope.

DP. Could you clarify something? Every academic analysis I have read about this report points out how badly done it was. How shoddy the methodology was, how it doesn't meet even minimal research standards, etc. Why do you think the authors are experts to be consulted when their colleagues in their field are almost unanimously pointing out how shoddy the work was? I have rarely seen such unanimity in a discussion of research methodology; it is striking. Is there something else that leads you to consider the authors as experts?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:and maybe it's too late but instead of retreating into a defensive crouch about a report that as you said pretty much pointed out the obvious you could like ask the author for her expert advice. unless you know of anyone else who bothered to do a systematic quantitative analysis of your community. i understand why you feel hurt by saying that the community you're proud of isn't pretty. but what is?

(side point: it's too bad and not helpful tho not a surprise that most of the media coverage is "look how terrible DCUM is" when the report clearly doesn't care about DCUM but about the way that privileged white parents talk about schools and used DCUM as a window into that. the alternative would be to bug playgrounds or monitor private Facebook groups or conduct thousands of long-form surveys and interviews. it would have been nicer for the authors to explicitly thank you and praise DCUM for being a valuable resource for research by being a public forum.)

I just want to respond to these two paragraphs. I would never ask this author for any advice. The "systematic quantitative analysis" was laughable. If you read my response on the home page, I pointed out several short-comings with the data analysis. If that is not enough for you, there are several posters more qualified than me to comment who have written critiques both in this and the other thread. This like asking me to go to a doctor who has just botched an operation for medical advice. To thank you.

The report went out of its way to emphasize that it was discussing DCUM posters and anyone with any brain at all would know that this would be reported the way that it was. What the authors should have done is point out that DCUM has many aspects, some good and some bad. Anyone who claims to be an ally of minority communities should be well aware of the problems of reductionism. I am sure with a few more word searches, the authors could stumble upon at least one positive contribution DCUM has made to the city's schools.

so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

[Anonymous]

The most important thing you could do to improve these threads is to require users to login so that their posts can be associated with one another over time and so that it would be clear how many people are participating in any given discussion.

You don't need to require real names (nor would that be practicable)--this alone would help. Most people aren't going to go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts to troll as someone other than their core persona.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:The most important thing you could do to improve these threads is to require users to login so that their posts can be associated with one another over time and so that it would be clear how many people are participating in any given discussion.

You don't need to require real names (nor would that be practicable)--this alone would help. Most people aren't going to go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts to troll as someone other than their core persona.

That would kill the forum. This is especially true for the schools forums because people are often discussing sensitive issues involving their children. Moreover, usernames only slightly reduce negativity. While there are obvious negative aspects to anonymous posting, there are also benefits. People are more willing to be honest. Particularly important to a female-dominated forum, anonymous posting essentially eliminates cyber-stalking and bullying. On this issue, I have a settled view that is not going to change.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

Ok, guess I was wrong about you being an adult. You know the lead author is a Harvard PhD and a senior fellow at Brookings. And you've even admitted the report boils down to the finding that rich white people living in rich white neighborhoods talk more about schools in rich white neighborhoods, which you said was obvious.

Seriously, what's more likely:

a) The authors are legitimate experts who did valid research, but you feel personally attacked and are flailing about to find ways to "prove" the Mean Thing Said About You was wrong, or

b) You calmly and dispassionately have proven the authors have scammed their way into doctorates and professorships and think tanks and produced trash and the Washington Post and NPR and all the others praising and promoting the report are part of the conspiracy against you

?

I hate criticism too! It makes me feel bad. and angry! And I have some friends who will say no matter what, "Nah you didn't do anything wrong, they're just haters and they're stupid". But my better friends are the ones who can tell me "Yeah, this criticism is fair. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'm here to help you do a better job."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

Ok, guess I was wrong about you being an adult. You know the lead author is a Harvard PhD and a senior fellow at Brookings. And you've even admitted the report boils down to the finding that rich white people living in rich white neighborhoods talk more about schools in rich white neighborhoods, which you said was obvious.

Seriously, what's more likely:

a) The authors are legitimate experts who did valid research, but you feel personally attacked and are flailing about to find ways to "prove" the Mean Thing Said About You was wrong, or

b) You calmly and dispassionately have proven the authors have scammed their way into doctorates and professorships and think tanks and produced trash and the Washington Post and NPR and all the others praising and promoting the report are part of the conspiracy against you

?

I hate criticism too! It makes me feel bad. and angry! And I have some friends who will say no matter what, "Nah you didn't do anything wrong, they're just haters and they're stupid". But my better friends are the ones who can tell me "Yeah, this criticism is fair. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'm here to help you do a better job."

lol this is DC. I think a LOT of us don't have any problem thinking that (b) could be true for any of the myriad think tanks and white paper grist mills around here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

Ok, guess I was wrong about you being an adult. You know the lead author is a Harvard PhD and a senior fellow at Brookings. And you've even admitted the report boils down to the finding that rich white people living in rich white neighborhoods talk more about schools in rich white neighborhoods, which you said was obvious.

Seriously, what's more likely:

a) The authors are legitimate experts who did valid research, but you feel personally attacked and are flailing about to find ways to "prove" the Mean Thing Said About You was wrong, or

b) You calmly and dispassionately have proven the authors have scammed their way into doctorates and professorships and think tanks and produced trash and the Washington Post and NPR and all the others praising and promoting the report are part of the conspiracy against you

?

I hate criticism too! It makes me feel bad. and angry! And I have some friends who will say no matter what, "Nah you didn't do anything wrong, they're just haters and they're stupid". But my better friends are the ones who can tell me "Yeah, this criticism is fair. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'm here to help you do a better job."

dp: Did you read the report? Does the ‘data’ presented support the conclusions cited? (Not whether the conclusions are possibly true, but whether this study proves a connection between the data and asserted conclusions).

Her academic degrees are irrelevant when you have the subject matter in front of you to consider.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

Ok, guess I was wrong about you being an adult. You know the lead author is a Harvard PhD and a senior fellow at Brookings. And you've even admitted the report boils down to the finding that rich white people living in rich white neighborhoods talk more about schools in rich white neighborhoods, which you said was obvious.

Seriously, what's more likely:

a) The authors are legitimate experts who did valid research, but you feel personally attacked and are flailing about to find ways to "prove" the Mean Thing Said About You was wrong, or

b) You calmly and dispassionately have proven the authors have scammed their way into doctorates and professorships and think tanks and produced trash and the Washington Post and NPR and all the others praising and promoting the report are part of the conspiracy against you

?

I hate criticism too! It makes me feel bad. and angry! And I have some friends who will say no matter what, "Nah you didn't do anything wrong, they're just haters and they're stupid". But my better friends are the ones who can tell me "Yeah, this criticism is fair. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'm here to help you do a better job."

I assume that you are one of the authors so would you mind ending the charade and letting us know which one?

Scholars are judged by their work. I don't care about credentials. What do you say about the inherent sampling errors resulting from the geographic concentration of our user base? What do you say about the failure to correct samples for school size? What do you say about the fact that the report compares attention to charter schools which draw upon the entire District for their students to neighborhood schools that draw from a defined boundary? These are all basic data analysis errors that don't require a Harvard education to identify (and, to be clear, I found them and have no such education).

Please drop the condescension. There are legitimate problems with this report. It may hurt your feelings to acknowledge them, but this is not about feelings -- yours or mine.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most important thing you could do to improve these threads is to require users to login so that their posts can be associated with one another over time and so that it would be clear how many people are participating in any given discussion.

You don't need to require real names (nor would that be practicable)--this alone would help. Most people aren't going to go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts to troll as someone other than their core persona.

That would kill the forum. This is especially true for the schools forums because people are often discussing sensitive issues involving their children. Moreover, usernames only slightly reduce negativity. While there are obvious negative aspects to anonymous posting, there are also benefits. People are more willing to be honest. Particularly important to a female-dominated forum, anonymous posting essentially eliminates cyber-stalking and bullying. On this issue, I have a settled view that is not going to change.

I'm not conceding PP's suggestion is a good one, but have you considered a format like PoPville? It's still anonymous but with usernames attached.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most important thing you could do to improve these threads is to require users to login so that their posts can be associated with one another over time and so that it would be clear how many people are participating in any given discussion.

You don't need to require real names (nor would that be practicable)--this alone would help. Most people aren't going to go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts to troll as someone other than their core persona.

That would kill the forum. This is especially true for the schools forums because people are often discussing sensitive issues involving their children. Moreover, usernames only slightly reduce negativity. While there are obvious negative aspects to anonymous posting, there are also benefits. People are more willing to be honest. Particularly important to a female-dominated forum, anonymous posting essentially eliminates cyber-stalking and bullying. On this issue, I have a settled view that is not going to change.

I'm not conceding PP's suggestion is a good one, but have you considered a format like PoPville? It's still anonymous but with usernames attached.

Yes, that has the same problem. Let's say your username is "DCUM Poster" and you post a question about Hearst School. In another post, you respond to a question about Hearst kindergarten by saying "Last year when my son was in kindergarten...". Then you go off to the car forum and ask for a recommendation for a mechanic to fix a Honda Accord. The next time you drop off your 1st grader at Hearst with your Honda Accord, the entire Hearst drop-off squad knows who "DCUM Poster" is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:so "too angry still" i guess.

the adult thing to do is to not indulge your hurt feelings but to respond to the rest of the suggestion. Someone questioned whether you have any "obligation" to change your site's demographics. The authors didn't have any obligation to protect your feelings. It's an accurate portrayal of the forum's zeitgeist. suck it up and decide whether you want your community to change or not.

It's not my feelings that are the issue. What expertise does this author have? Her data analysis was trash. I know nothing about her other than she produced a report that is laughable in its quality. Why would I ever turn to such a person for advice? Based on what I know, the advice is likely to be wrong and probably counter-productive.

Ok, guess I was wrong about you being an adult. You know the lead author is a Harvard PhD and a senior fellow at Brookings. And you've even admitted the report boils down to the finding that rich white people living in rich white neighborhoods talk more about schools in rich white neighborhoods, which you said was obvious.

Seriously, what's more likely:

a) The authors are legitimate experts who did valid research, but you feel personally attacked and are flailing about to find ways to "prove" the Mean Thing Said About You was wrong, or

b) You calmly and dispassionately have proven the authors have scammed their way into doctorates and professorships and think tanks and produced trash and the Washington Post and NPR and all the others praising and promoting the report are part of the conspiracy against you

?

I hate criticism too! It makes me feel bad. and angry! And I have some friends who will say no matter what, "Nah you didn't do anything wrong, they're just haters and they're stupid". But my better friends are the ones who can tell me "Yeah, this criticism is fair. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. I'm here to help you do a better job."

You don't know who is making criticisms of your research. I don't go, "oh, I have a PhD, you should listen to me", and not just because I could be making it up, but because what I'm saying stands on its own or it doesn't. This doesn't. The methodology doesn't support the conclusions. There are embarrassing errors that anyone can understand. I don't "feel bad" because I'm criticized, it just is bad. And you're not anyone's friend, or helping them to do a better job, because you don't have any interest in actually determining why people are making the choices they are.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The most important thing you could do to improve these threads is to require users to login so that their posts can be associated with one another over time and so that it would be clear how many people are participating in any given discussion.

You don't need to require real names (nor would that be practicable)--this alone would help. Most people aren't going to go to the trouble of setting up multiple accounts to troll as someone other than their core persona.

That would kill the forum. This is especially true for the schools forums because people are often discussing sensitive issues involving their children. Moreover, usernames only slightly reduce negativity. While there are obvious negative aspects to anonymous posting, there are also benefits. People are more willing to be honest. Particularly important to a female-dominated forum, anonymous posting essentially eliminates cyber-stalking and bullying. On this issue, I have a settled view that is not going to change.

I'm not conceding PP's suggestion is a good one, but have you considered a format like PoPville? It's still anonymous but with usernames attached.

Yes, that has the same problem. Let's say your username is "DCUM Poster" and you post a question about Hearst School. In another post, you respond to a question about Hearst kindergarten by saying "Last year when my son was in kindergarten...". Then you go off to the car forum and ask for a recommendation for a mechanic to fix a Honda Accord. The next time you drop off your 1st grader at Hearst with your Honda Accord, the entire Hearst drop-off squad knows who "DCUM Poster" is.

Yeah but my username on PoPville is computer-generated and not memorable. So it wouldn't be traceable in the manner you suggest above, but it would have been for this (not great) study.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Banneker is a decent school but only within DCPS would it be considered excellent. In most states, it would be mediocre. But DC unfortunately has settled for low standards. I don’t understand why Banneker kids don’t go to better colleges. You can accuse me of being ratings obsessed but the fact is it does matter where you go to college especially for minority and low income kids. The ivys are over-hyped but it is well known that they can make a huge difference for poor, first gen and minority kids. For upperclass white kids, where they go matters a bit less. I think Banneker is underperforming for the kids they claim to serve.

You’re ratings obsessed but Banneker is rated #99 in the country and Washington Latin is #9500. Latin is ranked #16 for high schools in WASHINGTON DC!!

The ratings don't mean anything. The proof is in the pudding. Where do the top students at a given high school go to college? If the answer isn't Harvard/Yale/Princeton, your schools is nothing special.

Banneker does send kids to those schools. More than Latin. So now what?

Latin HS is tiny. Almost all Banneker kids go to decent or meh schools. I’m guessing the college advising is not great at Banneker. That could be one issue. Also, their lack of emphasis on sports and extracurricular activities could be another issue. I think their goal of getting kids to just any college could be more ambitious. Given they do better than most of DCPS means there is no pressure on them to aim higher. That is unfortunate. They are too complacent and a bit old school. They don’t offer Computer Science for example. Banneker kids deserve more in my opinion.

So that’s why people pay thousands for a college counselor. Just stop with the BS already and be happy with the wildly successful college counselors at Wilson.