Study: "Discussions of D.C. public school options in an online forum" (yes, this one)

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious - because the DCUM community is a "group of largely white, largely affluent posters who primarily live in largely white, largely affluent neighborhoods", it doesn't matter whether individual participants are racist or anti-racist or whatever. It's not a "bunch of segregationists" or a "bunch of Klan members" (jsteele's characterization of how the study portrays DCUM) but is a community segregated from other communities in DC by race, class, and geography.

jsteele knows that DCUM is a forum for rich white people who live in rich white neighborhoods and seems to be 100% fine with that, since he keeps bringing it up and acting like it's no big deal.

(OK one person noticed this: "you know your demo because that is what you sell to advertisers. and the fact that your site isn't inclusive is what they are studying")

The problem isn't the individuals. It's the community. And it's the community jsteele wants. Maybe that's why he's so defensive about and feels personally targeted by a study that exposes his community's failings - it ends up being an accurate study of his failings.

Maybe I should be nicer and protect jsteele's feelings so that it's easier for him to hear.

But I have enough respect for his ability to act like an adult and think about the idea of taking action to make DCUM be a forum that is for the entire city of Washington DC and not only its rich white neighborhoods.

I love when posters are honest and treat me like the adult that I am. So, thank you PP. I appreciate your post. Since you were honest, I will also be honest. The DCUM community is heavily represented by white, affluent, well-educated women. Of course that is not representative of the entire community, but that describes the core. And, you know what? I am very proud of that community. I have always said that I will put the DCUM community up against any other online community. My pride is not due to their race, wealth, gender, or education, though I appreciate all of those things. I am proud because for over 15 years they have consistently and ably responded to complete strangers with whom they may have nothing in common to offer support and assistance. They are funny, entertaining, extremely helpful, and, let's face it, sometimes really big pains in the ass. But, this is a great community and nobody will change my mind about that.

You are right about another thing. Our audience is an extremely marketable demographic. But, do you know what I did to create that audience? Nothing. Do you know what I do to maintain it? Nothing. Let's be honest. I am male. I don't make law partner money and am not in the same socio-economic class as many of our users (though I make more than I deserve). I am rude and frequently piss off our users. There is no good explanation for how I could create such a community which I hope makes it easy to believe the truth, which is that I didn't. I'm just the guy who serves the drinks and washes the glasses and occasionally tosses out a disruptive customer.

I've have made efforts to attract other voices to the forum. But, we don't have an advertising budget and never have had. We do no marketing. This community was created organically, more often in spite of me than because of me. I wish it would grow to include others and I think it has, though not to the extent that I would like.

I know that it is pretty common to think "Jeff just has to do this and that will happen", but that doesn't even work with my kids, let alone an audience of hundreds of thousands. If I really could control segregation in the District, I would be selling corporate sponsorships for weekly school desegregation's. You know, "This week's school desegregation brought to you by AT&T. Enroll your white, upper class kid in this Title 1 school. It's safe, secure, and reliable, just like AT&T's mobile service." But, things don't work that way.

I am happy to work with you to help expand our user base. Just let me know how I can help.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious - because the DCUM community is a "group of largely white, largely affluent posters who primarily live in largely white, largely affluent neighborhoods", it doesn't matter whether individual participants are racist or anti-racist or whatever. It's not a "bunch of segregationists" or a "bunch of Klan members" (jsteele's characterization of how the study portrays DCUM) but is a community segregated from other communities in DC by race, class, and geography.

jsteele knows that DCUM is a forum for rich white people who live in rich white neighborhoods and seems to be 100% fine with that, since he keeps bringing it up and acting like it's no big deal.

(OK one person noticed this: "you know your demo because that is what you sell to advertisers. and the fact that your site isn't inclusive is what they are studying")

The problem isn't the individuals. It's the community. And it's the community jsteele wants. Maybe that's why he's so defensive about and feels personally targeted by a study that exposes his community's failings - it ends up being an accurate study of his failings.

Maybe I should be nicer and protect jsteele's feelings so that it's easier for him to hear.

But I have enough respect for his ability to act like an adult and think about the idea of taking action to make DCUM be a forum that is for the entire city of Washington DC and not only its rich white neighborhoods.

I love when posters are honest and treat me like the adult that I am. So, thank you PP. I appreciate your post. Since you were honest, I will also be honest. The DCUM community is heavily represented by white, affluent, well-educated women. Of course that is not representative of the entire community, but that describes the core. And, you know what? I am very proud of that community. I have always said that I will put the DCUM community up against any other online community. My pride is not due to their race, wealth, gender, or education, though I appreciate all of those things. I am proud because for over 15 years they have consistently and ably responded to complete strangers with whom they may have nothing in common to offer support and assistance. They are funny, entertaining, extremely helpful, and, let's face it, sometimes really big pains in the ass. But, this is a great community and nobody will change my mind about that.

You are right about another thing. Our audience is an extremely marketable demographic. But, do you know what I did to create that audience? Nothing. Do you know what I do to maintain it? Nothing. Let's be honest. I am male. I don't make law partner money and am not in the same socio-economic class as many of our users (though I make more than I deserve). I am rude and frequently piss off our users. There is no good explanation for how I could create such a community which I hope makes it easy to believe the truth, which is that I didn't. I'm just the guy who serves the drinks and washes the glasses and occasionally tosses out a disruptive customer.

I've have made efforts to attract other voices to the forum. But, we don't have an advertising budget and never have had. We do no marketing. This community was created organically, more often in spite of me than because of me. I wish it would grow to include others and I think it has, though not to the extent that I would like.

I know that it is pretty common to think "Jeff just has to do this and that will happen", but that doesn't even work with my kids, let alone an audience of hundreds of thousands. If I really could control segregation in the District, I would be selling corporate sponsorships for weekly school desegregation's. You know, "This week's school desegregation brought to you by AT&T. Enroll your white, upper class kid in this Title 1 school. It's safe, secure, and reliable, just like AT&T's mobile service." But, things don't work that way.

I am happy to work with you to help expand our user base. Just let me know how I can help.

❤️❤️❤️

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Banneker is a decent school but only within DCPS would it be considered excellent. In most states, it would be mediocre. But DC unfortunately has settled for low standards. I don’t understand why Banneker kids don’t go to better colleges. You can accuse me of being ratings obsessed but the fact is it does matter where you go to college especially for minority and low income kids. The ivys are over-hyped but it is well known that they can make a huge difference for poor, first gen and minority kids. For upperclass white kids, where they go matters a bit less. I think Banneker is underperforming for the kids they claim to serve.

You’re ratings obsessed but Banneker is rated #99 in the country and Washington Latin is #9500. Latin is ranked #16 for high schools in WASHINGTON DC!!

The ratings don't mean anything. The proof is in the pudding. Where do the top students at a given high school go to college? If the answer isn't Harvard/Yale/Princeton, your schools is nothing special.

Banneker does send kids to those schools. More than Latin. So now what?

[Anonymous]

what's interesting is that all of this seems to point toward a certain maturation, a need to elevate the culture here.

A little of it is probably on our esteemed moderator, who definitely removes a bunch of terrible posts, etc., but maybe there needs to be a little norm-setting from the top down.

But more of this needs to be norm-setting from the bottom up. Look, this place should be snarky, but it clearly reflects poorly on this forum to be selfish, unkind, and talk about race and poverty in ways you would not across racial lines or someone poorer than you. You either realize that and deal with it or let this place turn into some kind of DC 4chan for supposed liberal grownups.

Basically, we need to grow up and not be assholes, even here.

And maybe even be openminded and charitable about DC schools, Gods forbid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lot of rice white and so-called liberal thinkers on the defensive on this thread, Jeff in particular. Self-reflection can be tough. You can criticize the methods behind this report all you want, but there is more than a kernel of truth to it to conclusions. Jeff, you are making money off of rich white folks. That’s just the way it is.

I commend to all of you the recent New York Times bestseller “white fragility: why it’s so hard for white people to talk about racism.” Many of you, in particular the moderator of this website, could learn from it.

+1
As a teacher who was previously really pissed off from being called racist, it takes time to and a willingness to accept your imperfections to realize you are contributing to the problems instead of the solutions. Proud to be working hard to come out on the other side. Parents on here who are upset, I get that nobody likes the stigma, but you also have some reflecting to do.

No thanks. The accusations of being racist here are unfounded. Our IB HS is Eastern. It’s not racist to look for other options. And DCUM as a whole plays a strong role in *encouraging* parents to consider majority minority schools in DC. I actually believe DCUM deserves credit for allowing parents to exchange information that leads to enrollement in IB schools like Van Ness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m sorry but I just can’t with this thread.

Until someone can give me a solid reason white folks in DC don’t flock to Banneker, I will not just swallow that we all want what is best for our children even if it happens to mean keeping our children segregated in schools that are 5% black.

1.) The most recent narrative that Banneker is just too precious of a school for the black community for white folks to mess up a good thing is bulls$&@. 20 years ago, Walls was 13% white and 73% black. Today it’s 50% white and 25% black. White folk had zero problems gentrifying Walls but won’t touch Banneker with a 10 foot pole.

2.) The other BS excuse that Banneker SAT scores are merely right above average don’t take into account that Banneker is an all black school. So its 1120 SAT scores should be measured against national averages for black students (946). Let’s not even get into income inequality. Did you know the average white student with family below poverty scores 130 points higher than the average black student? Anyone that has even the most basic understanding of statistics knows not to measure the SATs at Banneker to nationwide but they continue to site this as an excuse of not being interested in Banneker.

Banneker is top 100 high schools in the nation and is is tied for first in the nation for Math and Reading Performance Rank (How aggregated scores on state assessments compare to U.S. News' expectations given the proportions of students who are black, Hispanic and from low-income households). Imagine how your brilliant white student can excel there.

3.) Banneker is just too hard of a school - See Basis, TJ

4.) I plan to “look” at Banneker when my 1st grader is old enough - yeah we’ve heard that before.

5.) I don’t want my child to be an only - what did white patents 20 years ago think when they gentrified Walls, Deal, Wilson and are doing now on the Hill and at Shepherd?

6.) My child wants to play X sport - recent Banneker grad played football (and maybe track) at Roosevelt and was a super star gaining admissions to various Ivy League schools

Sure, Banneker is not for everyone. But certainly it’s a good fit for more than the 2 white kids that attend every year.

Supporting arguments: see Creative Minds popularity vs nearby Whittier, Barnard, Truesdell etc.

I would love for my kids to go there. It's a peer group I'd be thrilled to put my kids in. I don't know why this isn't a more popular viewpoint. Maybe people are willing to be an only when they don't have other options, and by the time you make it through middle school and to high school, you have other options.

I will file you under excuse #4. Not sure I buy your second part of having other options for high school being as though there are kids that don’t get into Walls and settle for Wilson (and not because they’re athletes).

Next?!

This is a pretty crappy attitude - dismissing a parent with little kids as racist (intentionally or subconsciously) because prior parents of 8th graders haven't sent their kids to Banneker? In addition to being personally crappy, it's logically questionable (to put it mildly).

Your other points about white parents choosing Banneker are well taken; this one is both unfair, (intentionally?) divisive and counterproductive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Banneker is a decent school but only within DCPS would it be considered excellent. In most states, it would be mediocre. But DC unfortunately has settled for low standards. I don’t understand why Banneker kids don’t go to better colleges. You can accuse me of being ratings obsessed but the fact is it does matter where you go to college especially for minority and low income kids. The ivys are over-hyped but it is well known that they can make a huge difference for poor, first gen and minority kids. For upperclass white kids, where they go matters a bit less. I think Banneker is underperforming for the kids they claim to serve.

You’re ratings obsessed but Banneker is rated #99 in the country and Washington Latin is #9500. Latin is ranked #16 for high schools in WASHINGTON DC!!

The ratings don't mean anything. The proof is in the pudding. Where do the top students at a given high school go to college? If the answer isn't Harvard/Yale/Princeton, your schools is nothing special.

Banneker does send kids to those schools. More than Latin. So now what?

Latin HS is tiny. Almost all Banneker kids go to decent or meh schools. I’m guessing the college advising is not great at Banneker. That could be one issue. Also, their lack of emphasis on sports and extracurricular activities could be another issue. I think their goal of getting kids to just any college could be more ambitious. Given they do better than most of DCPS means there is no pressure on them to aim higher. That is unfortunate. They are too complacent and a bit old school. They don’t offer Computer Science for example. Banneker kids deserve more in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

+1. The Banneker thing in particular. For posters to suggest that white kids are not going there out of respect for the school is laughable. Such a cop out. And for folks to suggest that the school isn’t as good as it is purported to be simply because of test scores are also off the mark. It has been demonstrated time and time again that test scores are correlated more than anything else with household income and the level of parental education. When adjusted for these variables, Banneker’s scores are very strong indeed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lot of rice white and so-called liberal thinkers on the defensive on this thread, Jeff in particular. Self-reflection can be tough. You can criticize the methods behind this report all you want, but there is more than a kernel of truth to it to conclusions. Jeff, you are making money off of rich white folks. That’s just the way it is.

I commend to all of you the recent New York Times bestseller “white fragility: why it’s so hard for white people to talk about racism.” Many of you, in particular the moderator of this website, could learn from it.

+1
As a teacher who was previously really pissed off from being called racist, it takes time to and a willingness to accept your imperfections to realize you are contributing to the problems instead of the solutions. Proud to be working hard to come out on the other side. Parents on here who are upset, I get that nobody likes the stigma, but you also have some reflecting to do.

No thanks. The accusations of being racist here are unfounded. Our IB HS is Eastern. It’s not racist to look for other options. And DCUM as a whole plays a strong role in *encouraging* parents to consider majority minority schools in DC. I actually believe DCUM deserves credit for allowing parents to exchange information that leads to enrollement in IB schools like Van Ness.

Baloney. Very few DCUM parents have their kids in majority minority schools, particularly when the minority in question is black. You are cherry picking and are too fragile to self-reflect, and we aren’t going to get anywhere until more people like you do.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm surprised no one has mentioned the obvious - because the DCUM community is a "group of largely white, largely affluent posters who primarily live in largely white, largely affluent neighborhoods", it doesn't matter whether individual participants are racist or anti-racist or whatever. It's not a "bunch of segregationists" or a "bunch of Klan members" (jsteele's characterization of how the study portrays DCUM) but is a community segregated from other communities in DC by race, class, and geography.

jsteele knows that DCUM is a forum for rich white people who live in rich white neighborhoods and seems to be 100% fine with that, since he keeps bringing it up and acting like it's no big deal.

(OK one person noticed this: "you know your demo because that is what you sell to advertisers. and the fact that your site isn't inclusive is what they are studying")

The problem isn't the individuals. It's the community. And it's the community jsteele wants. Maybe that's why he's so defensive about and feels personally targeted by a study that exposes his community's failings - it ends up being an accurate study of his failings.

Maybe I should be nicer and protect jsteele's feelings so that it's easier for him to hear.

But I have enough respect for his ability to act like an adult and think about the idea of taking action to make DCUM be a forum that is for the entire city of Washington DC and not only its rich white neighborhoods.

I love when posters are honest and treat me like the adult that I am. So, thank you PP. I appreciate your post. Since you were honest, I will also be honest. The DCUM community is heavily represented by white, affluent, well-educated women. Of course that is not representative of the entire community, but that describes the core. And, you know what? I am very proud of that community. I have always said that I will put the DCUM community up against any other online community. My pride is not due to their race, wealth, gender, or education, though I appreciate all of those things. I am proud because for over 15 years they have consistently and ably responded to complete strangers with whom they may have nothing in common to offer support and assistance. They are funny, entertaining, extremely helpful, and, let's face it, sometimes really big pains in the ass. But, this is a great community and nobody will change my mind about that.

You are right about another thing. Our audience is an extremely marketable demographic. But, do you know what I did to create that audience? Nothing. Do you know what I do to maintain it? Nothing. Let's be honest. I am male. I don't make law partner money and am not in the same socio-economic class as many of our users (though I make more than I deserve). I am rude and frequently piss off our users. There is no good explanation for how I could create such a community which I hope makes it easy to believe the truth, which is that I didn't. I'm just the guy who serves the drinks and washes the glasses and occasionally tosses out a disruptive customer.

I've have made efforts to attract other voices to the forum. But, we don't have an advertising budget and never have had. We do no marketing. This community was created organically, more often in spite of me than because of me. I wish it would grow to include others and I think it has, though not to the extent that I would like.

I know that it is pretty common to think "Jeff just has to do this and that will happen", but that doesn't even work with my kids, let alone an audience of hundreds of thousands. If I really could control segregation in the District, I would be selling corporate sponsorships for weekly school desegregation's. You know, "This week's school desegregation brought to you by AT&T. Enroll your white, upper class kid in this Title 1 school. It's safe, secure, and reliable, just like AT&T's mobile service." But, things don't work that way.

I am happy to work with you to help expand our user base. Just let me know how I can help.

this is admirable.

it's hard to change the demographics of an established online community but definitely not impossible. expanding the demographics is the easiest way fortunately.

that said some existing members of the community will leave and you have to decide whether you're comfortable with that. seriously, you have decide whether your pride in the community of white, affluent, well-educated women you've fostered is something you can give up or put aside and say something like "i'm proud of what was accomplished, now it's time to try something new."

my honest recommendation would be for you to start by challenging your community to discuss how and whether to change. and then you publicly decide what course of action to take.

and maybe it's too late but instead of retreating into a defensive crouch about a report that as you said pretty much pointed out the obvious you could like ask the author for her expert advice. unless you know of anyone else who bothered to do a systematic quantitative analysis of your community. i understand why you feel hurt by saying that the community you're proud of isn't pretty. but what is?

(side point: it's too bad and not helpful tho not a surprise that most of the media coverage is "look how terrible DCUM is" when the report clearly doesn't care about DCUM but about the way that privileged white parents talk about schools and used DCUM as a window into that. the alternative would be to bug playgrounds or monitor private Facebook groups or conduct thousands of long-form surveys and interviews. it would have been nicer for the authors to explicitly thank you and praise DCUM for being a valuable resource for research by being a public forum.)

or if you're too angry still about the report (also i can imagine the author might not be inclined to chat with you now that you've demeaned her professionalism) there are tons of folks here in DC who are experts on questions like this. it's easy to find people who are critical of DCUM who aren't hiding behind anonymity (like me, ha). you could ask them "right now DCUM is a community built around a core of white, affluent, well-educated women. what would make DCUM feel like a forum for all of DC? do you have any ideas? questions to ask? or you can simply share your own experience with my site."

and yeah say you succeeded in making DCUM a representative forum for all of DC it wouldn't solve racism or segregation. but it'd be another thing for you to be proud of i hope.

[Anonymous]

Most suburban MD and VA schools offer math courses above AP Calculus BC and at least one AP Physics course. The last time I checked Banneker did not offer either AP Calculus BC or AP Physics. Good luck getting into Engineering programs without those courses. And now someone will respond saying I’m a racist for not considering McKinley Tech instead. I have spoken to multiple teachers at McKinley Tech and they all lament the quality of students being admitted. AP scores are pretty low and teachers say it is because kids are not coming in at grade level so they are trying to catch them up. Is it so bad for wanting better for your kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lot of rice white and so-called liberal thinkers on the defensive on this thread, Jeff in particular. Self-reflection can be tough. You can criticize the methods behind this report all you want, but there is more than a kernel of truth to it to conclusions. Jeff, you are making money off of rich white folks. That’s just the way it is.

I commend to all of you the recent New York Times bestseller “white fragility: why it’s so hard for white people to talk about racism.” Many of you, in particular the moderator of this website, could learn from it.

+1
As a teacher who was previously really pissed off from being called racist, it takes time to and a willingness to accept your imperfections to realize you are contributing to the problems instead of the solutions. Proud to be working hard to come out on the other side. Parents on here who are upset, I get that nobody likes the stigma, but you also have some reflecting to do.

No thanks. The accusations of being racist here are unfounded. Our IB HS is Eastern. It’s not racist to look for other options. And DCUM as a whole plays a strong role in *encouraging* parents to consider majority minority schools in DC. I actually believe DCUM deserves credit for allowing parents to exchange information that leads to enrollement in IB schools like Van Ness.

Baloney. Very few DCUM parents have their kids in majority minority schools, particularly when the minority in question is black. You are cherry picking and are too fragile to self-reflect, and we aren’t going to get anywhere until more people like you do.

I'm not cherry picking at all. As I understand it, the study was intended to be a qualitative analysis of how DCUM discussions "reinforce segregation." But my experience of DCUM (and I think a better analysis would show) that there are many schools where integration has been accelerated by the information-exchange on DCUM. Van Ness is just one example, but there are many others that have evolved over the years I've been here. The argument of the study seems to be that DCUM could only be anti-racist if everyone was discussing how to get their kids into Ward 7 and 8 schools OOB, which makes very little sense. And while the majority of DCUM parents may not have their kids in majority-minority schools, DC schools are much MUCH more integrated than schools elsewhere. People have held up DCUM buzz about CMI as an example of the supposed segregation-reinforcing power of DCUM. But CMI is less than 50% white! It's really, really hard to discern where the good faith argument is here.

[Anonymous]

Strong research papers always point out potential solutions or next steps. I am a research scientist and my PhD advisor would have thrown this in the trash. He always said that it is easy to identify problems. Don’t leave the hard stuff for other people. Pointing out problems without solutions is a waste of everyone’s time

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:and maybe it's too late but instead of retreating into a defensive crouch about a report that as you said pretty much pointed out the obvious you could like ask the author for her expert advice. unless you know of anyone else who bothered to do a systematic quantitative analysis of your community. i understand why you feel hurt by saying that the community you're proud of isn't pretty. but what is?

(side point: it's too bad and not helpful tho not a surprise that most of the media coverage is "look how terrible DCUM is" when the report clearly doesn't care about DCUM but about the way that privileged white parents talk about schools and used DCUM as a window into that. the alternative would be to bug playgrounds or monitor private Facebook groups or conduct thousands of long-form surveys and interviews. it would have been nicer for the authors to explicitly thank you and praise DCUM for being a valuable resource for research by being a public forum.)

I just want to respond to these two paragraphs. I would never ask this author for any advice. The "systematic quantitative analysis" was laughable. If you read my response on the home page, I pointed out several short-comings with the data analysis. If that is not enough for you, there are several posters more qualified than me to comment who have written critiques both in this and the other thread. This like asking me to go to a doctor who has just botched an operation for medical advice. To thank you.

The report went out of its way to emphasize that it was discussing DCUM posters and anyone with any brain at all would know that this would be reported the way that it was. What the authors should have done is point out that DCUM has many aspects, some good and some bad. Anyone who claims to be an ally of minority communities should be well aware of the problems of reductionism. I am sure with a few more word searches, the authors could stumble upon at least one positive contribution DCUM has made to the city's schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lot of rice white and so-called liberal thinkers on the defensive on this thread, Jeff in particular. Self-reflection can be tough. You can criticize the methods behind this report all you want, but there is more than a kernel of truth to it to conclusions. Jeff, you are making money off of rich white folks. That’s just the way it is.

I commend to all of you the recent New York Times bestseller “white fragility: why it’s so hard for white people to talk about racism.” Many of you, in particular the moderator of this website, could learn from it.

the self-righteousness is strong with this one