Can we stop referring to households making $200 or 300K a year as "middle class"?

[Anonymous]

Are there any real economists on this board? There are a lot of "opinions" on what makes a person middle class but a lot of them sound ticky-tacky and the invention of someone's bored mind.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are there any real economists on this board? There are a lot of "opinions" on what makes a person middle class but a lot of them sound ticky-tacky and the invention of someone's bored mind.

You could always read the actual thread and see the links folks have posted regarding the actual statistics on what makes up the middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are there any real economists on this board? There are a lot of "opinions" on what makes a person middle class but a lot of them sound ticky-tacky and the invention of someone's bored mind.

You could always read the actual thread and see the links folks have posted regarding the actual statistics on what makes up the middle class.

Why confuse what you believe with facts? PP you will have to search hard if you want actual answers from this thread because the few attempts to instill statistics into this thread have been largely ignored, within a few posts it's back to claims like "I live in a shitshack in Bethesda so I mUST be middle class", countered by "no one who can afford a house in Bethesda can possibly be middle class." Better off just googling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

Um, no. But thanks for playing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

for the most part you won't be making 150-300k in a lower cost area. so the point is pretty moot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

Um, no. But thanks for playing.

http://blog.builddirect.com/what-kind-house-500k/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

And, case in point. You *CHOOSE* to live in a higher cost area. There is nothing forcing you to live in Bethesda. You can live in Kensington or Wheaton or Silver Spring for a lot less than it takes to live in Bethesda. It is a luxury to be able to live in a prime location, whether that is for easy commute, for good schools, for newer construction. When you choose to live there, you are making a choice to spend that money. In the more desirable parts of town, if you have that choice, you are not middle class. Having the income to spend and spending it on a expensive luxury, makes one upper class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

Source please! Thx.

[Anonymous]

But housing doesn't count! My friend in outer BFE has a much bigger, newer house than me. Besides, we drive old cars. blah blah blah

Whatever. It's America and in five decades I have never met anyone wiling to admit that they are any higher on the economic ladder than "upper" middle class. It's our culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

That's like saying I'm poor because my $4000 clothing budget gets me less at Nordstrom's than at Target.
Money does not buy brains!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

THAN CHOOSE TO LIVE SOMEWHERE CHEAPER!!
What do you people not get -- higher income expands your field of choices!!!!! If you CHOOSE to use up all your money on a house close in -- that does not mean you are now middle class -- it means that is how you CHOSE to spend the money you have, WHICH IS STILL MORE THAN MIDDLE CLASS FOLK!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as they ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

And, case in point. You *CHOOSE* to live in a higher cost area. There is nothing forcing you to live in Bethesda. You can live in Kensington or Wheaton or Silver Spring for a lot less than it takes to live in Bethesda. It is a luxury to be able to live in a prime location, whether that is for easy commute, for good schools, for newer construction. When you choose to live there, you are making a choice to spend that money. In the more desirable parts of town, if you have that choice, you are not middle class. Having the income to spend and spending it on a expensive luxury, makes one upper class.

Not helping your point if you reference Kensington, Wheaton, and Silver Spring. (Or PG county, or SE DC, or whatever.) You can't buy a SFH in Kensington for less than $300,000. You can buy an enormous house with a yard near a metro area in many other parts of the country for that kind of money. If you live in Silver Spring, you are doing better than most Americans. Stop saying people in Burke or whatever are "middle class" in their $350K+ houses.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as theoy ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

And, case in point. You *CHOOSE* to live in a higher cost area. There is nothing forcing you to live in Bethesda. You can live in Kensington or Wheaton or Silver Spring for a lot less than it takes to live in Bethesda. It is a luxury to be able to live in a prime location, whether that is for easy commute, for good schools, for newer construction. When you choose to live there, you are making a choice to spend that money. In the more desirable parts of town, if you have that choice, you are not middle class. Having the income to spend and spending it on a expensive luxury, makes one upper class.

Not helping your point if you reference Kensington, Wheaton, and Silver Spring. (Or PG county, or SE DC, or whatever.) You can't buy a SFH in Kensington for less than $300,000. You can buy an enormous house with a yard near a metro area in many other parts of the country for that kind of money. If you live in Silver Spring, you are doing better than most Americans. Stop saying people in Burke or whatever are "middle class" in their $350K+ houses.

Your last sentence confuses me. So are you saying if you can buy a $350k house that you are not middle class? That would mean that the vast majority of home owners in the DC area are not middle class, which is rather an extreme counterpoint to what we've been arguing about. Middle class folks just have to save longer for a down payment and housing eats up more of their budget. We bought our first house last year at age 35. By your argument, even though our salary is the same and we're paying the same in mortgage as we were in rent, we've graduated to what, exactly?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you are middle class if you have to look at what is coming in and what is going out and wonder if the income stops for a few months, can you survive?

I think that those of us that work for a living, have to find childcare (including making the financial call as to whether you can afford to be a SAHM), care for elderly parents, have a mortgage or pay rent, and have to look at the cost of vacation (or save for one) are probably middle class.

Why do people think that if they choose to spend more of their salary every month leaving less for disposable income, that makes them middle class?

The true middle class friends that I have, cut corners on all of these areas because that is their only choice. Two families I know, a grandmother cut back to part-time work so that she could care for her grandchild(ren) part-time. Then the parents went with part-time child-care, one at a less expensive daycare and one with a nanny share because that was all they could afford. I know families that have had to continue to live in small houses in crappy school districts because that was all they could afford. I know friends who cannot afford to care for their parents as theoy ail and have had to find eldercare that accepted medicaid because that was what they could afford.

If you can choose the best childcare for your child, if you can choose even the crappy house in the best school districts, if you can choose how to care for your elderly parents who need assistance, then you aren't just middle class. The middle class doesn't have these options.

So many DCUMers are so out of touch with reality. Yes, there is a big difference between $300K and $5M but there is also a huge difference between middle class $150K and $300K. I don't care if you live in a crappy shitshack, but when it costs you $800K because you live in Bethesda, then you aren't middle class. Period.

Amen.

Middle class can vary from area to area, if housing eats up a lot of your income then you will be living the same lifestyle as people in less expensive areas. It is possible to be middle class on 150-300k if you compare that to someone in a lower COL area.

And, case in point. You *CHOOSE* to live in a higher cost area. There is nothing forcing you to live in Bethesda. You can live in Kensington or Wheaton or Silver Spring for a lot less than it takes to live in Bethesda. It is a luxury to be able to live in a prime location, whether that is for easy commute, for good schools, for newer construction. When you choose to live there, you are making a choice to spend that money. In the more desirable parts of town, if you have that choice, you are not middle class. Having the income to spend and spending it on a expensive luxury, makes one upper class.

Not helping your point if you reference Kensington, Wheaton, and Silver Spring. (Or PG county, or SE DC, or whatever.) You can't buy a SFH in Kensington for less than $300,000. You can buy an enormous house with a yard near a metro area in many other parts of the country for that kind of money. If you live in Silver Spring, you are doing better than most Americans. Stop saying people in Burke or whatever are "middle class" in their $350K+ houses.

Your last sentence confuses me. So are you saying if you can buy a $350k house that you are not middle class? That would mean that the vast majority of home owners in the DC area are not middle class, which is rather an extreme counterpoint to what we've been arguing about. Middle class folks just have to save longer for a down payment and housing eats up more of their budget. We bought our first house last year at age 35. By your argument, even though our salary is the same and we're paying the same in mortgage as we were in rent, we've graduated to what, exactly?

As far as I can see, no one has argued about these definitions of middle class from earlier on the thread:

Anonymous wrote:In DC the middle income bracket is $49,703-$85,719.

Anonymous wrote:The true middle class (those making $75-150K)

Anonymous wrote:I would consider myself pretty middle class for this area. I make about $95K

Anonymous wrote:The definition here starts at $35,000 — which is about 50 percent higher than the official poverty level for a family of four — and ends at the six-figure mark.

To save up a 20% down payment on a $350K house and cover the mortgage and taxes you need to have an income over $100K, so you are not middle class, you are wealthy.