Families that never volunteer - swim team

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?

This is nonsensical, a USA swim meet is different than recreation and has different standards that need to be met to qualify as a USA swim meet. None of those standards apply to summer league swim except MCSL Coaches Long Course, which is why it’s a USA swimming sanctioned meet. Pretending that a summer league B meet needs to be run like a club swim meet is ridiculous.

NVSL has standards and so does USA swim. There are USA swim meets where anyone with a club affiliation can sign up and the times are atrocious. Pretending that those meets are somehow special is ridiculous

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?

Who said that? Obviously, usa swimming meets are not the equivalent of rec. All the officials had to go through a lot more training than summer swim officials. The equipment for pads and buttons are costly and have to be maintained properly. Summer swim times might be important to you and your child, but they are only important within your summer league. USA swimming times are official times that can stand in national records and be used to qualify for anything from zones to sectionals to junior nationals to Olympic trials.

And they aren’t official because of touchpads. They are official because the whole meet is sanctioned by USA swimming and follows their guidelines, down to blocks, age standards, stroke and turn official training, seeding mechanisms, dq procedures, timing adjustments, type of timing equipment, etc. They even dictate how rounding occurs.

What percentage of PVSL swimmers are qualifying for Olympic trials?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?

This is nonsensical, a USA swim meet is different than recreation and has different standards that need to be met to qualify as a USA swim meet. None of those standards apply to summer league swim except MCSL Coaches Long Course, which is why it’s a USA swimming sanctioned meet. Pretending that a summer league B meet needs to be run like a club swim meet is ridiculous.

MCSL and NVSL have rules too and the pools need to follow them. Those rules require 3 timers per lane. They can’t just ignore the league rules because parents don’t want to time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

If you only had two timers per lane at a pool with no touchpads, instead of just taking the middle time, those two times would have to be averaged after every, single swim. And the table workers would have to confirm every single one of those those averages.

Wait. Are you saying that every single lane in a local kids swim meet has three adults standing there timing each kid? So like 15 adults timing a bunch of 8 year olds swimming across their local pool? That's.... insane.
Will some kid get stuck with a timer with a slow finger now and then? Yeah, probably. Just like every pitcher has to deal with umpires who don't know the strike zone and every soccer team has refs that make crappy calls. That's life.

Have you never attended any of these meets? What are you doing here?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

If you only had two timers per lane at a pool with no touchpads, instead of just taking the middle time, those two times would have to be averaged after every, single swim. And the table workers would have to confirm every single one of those those averages.

Wait. Are you saying that every single lane in a local kids swim meet has three adults standing there timing each kid? So like 15 adults timing a bunch of 8 year olds swimming across their local pool? That's.... insane.
Will some kid get stuck with a timer with a slow finger now and then? Yeah, probably. Just like every pitcher has to deal with umpires who don't know the strike zone and every soccer team has refs that make crappy calls. That's life.

Have you never attended any of these meets? What are you doing here?

Wow, with that attitude, why would anyone volunteer to sit next to you and help out?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

If you only had two timers per lane at a pool with no touchpads, instead of just taking the middle time, those two times would have to be averaged after every, single swim. And the table workers would have to confirm every single one of those those averages.

Wait. Are you saying that every single lane in a local kids swim meet has three adults standing there timing each kid? So like 15 adults timing a bunch of 8 year olds swimming across their local pool? That's.... insane.
Will some kid get stuck with a timer with a slow finger now and then? Yeah, probably. Just like every pitcher has to deal with umpires who don't know the strike zone and every soccer team has refs that make crappy calls. That's life.

Have you never attended any of these meets? What are you doing here?

Wow, with that attitude, why would anyone volunteer to sit next to you and help out?

Because they love their kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who whined about the "volunteer" requirement.

I wonder if a better way to think of it as opposed to an activity run by volunteers, is as an a parent-child activity. It's an activity that is designed for families to do together, and doing it together is what some of us love.

Think of it like a parent-toddler gymnastics class that runs at 10 a.m. on a weekday. If a family where both parents are at work at 10 a.m. on weekdays announced that it was "so elitist" and that they were going to drop off and let the "volunteers" sit next to their child and help him on the balance beam, and take him to the bathroom, or better yet that they were going to come and sit over on the edge and video tape because they were tired from their jobs, or that the other parents should do some fundraising and hire helpers for those poor rich kids whose parents are working, everyone would realize that was absurd.

Now, if someone and their kid is signed up, and they break their leg, or are 9 months pregnant, or their mom is in the hospital, then a lot of people in parent-toddler class would step up. Because they are probably decent people. And that happens a lot in summer swim.

I think that’s an excellent comparison!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm the PP who whined about the "volunteer" requirement.

I wonder if a better way to think of it as opposed to an activity run by volunteers, is as an a parent-child activity. It's an activity that is designed for families to do together, and doing it together is what some of us love.

Think of it like a parent-toddler gymnastics class that runs at 10 a.m. on a weekday. If a family where both parents are at work at 10 a.m. on weekdays announced that it was "so elitist" and that they were going to drop off and let the "volunteers" sit next to their child and help him on the balance beam, and take him to the bathroom, or better yet that they were going to come and sit over on the edge and video tape because they were tired from their jobs, or that the other parents should do some fundraising and hire helpers for those poor rich kids whose parents are working, everyone would realize that was absurd.

Now, if someone and their kid is signed up, and they break their leg, or are 9 months pregnant, or their mom is in the hospital, then a lot of people in parent-toddler class would step up. Because they are probably decent people. And that happens a lot in summer swim.

I think that’s an excellent comparison!

We were in a babysitting “coop” where parents were supposed to babysit for other kids, and in return other parents would look after theirs. We dropped out pretty quickly because it was clear some parents were just using it for free babysitting and never reciprocating. People like this are called moochers.

[Anonymous]

We have a volunteer fee but I think many people are happy to pay it. Maybe it needs to be higher? I once paid the fee for a different sport when I was just in a busy time and couldn’t commit to the volunteer requirements.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

Also at a USA swimming meet you have professional judges who are passionate about swimming and probably swam themselves.

I have never swum competitively. I might be legal in 25 m freestyle and backstroke but nothing else. I am not passionate at all about swimming, just about my kids being happy. I am very able to believe that a paid judge could watch more lanes than me!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

Also at a USA swimming meet you have professional judges who are passionate about swimming and probably swam themselves.

I have never swum competitively. I might be legal in 25 m freestyle and backstroke but nothing else. I am not passionate at all about swimming, just about my kids being happy. I am very able to believe that a paid judge could watch more lanes than me!

The stroke and turn judges at your kids USA swimming meets are not professionals. They are volunteers and are not getting paid. Most are parents. At best they are getting some sort of discount on club fees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

Also at a USA swimming meet you have professional judges who are passionate about swimming and probably swam themselves.

I have never swum competitively. I might be legal in 25 m freestyle and backstroke but nothing else. I am not passionate at all about swimming, just about my kids being happy. I am very able to believe that a paid judge could watch more lanes than me!

Do you realize the costs involved in paying that many people to do the work of the volunteers? More importantly, where would they come from? Our pool struggles to get lifeguards?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

Also at a USA swimming meet you have professional judges who are passionate about swimming and probably swam themselves.

I have never swum competitively. I might be legal in 25 m freestyle and backstroke but nothing else. I am not passionate at all about swimming, just about my kids being happy. I am very able to believe that a paid judge could watch more lanes than me!

The stroke and turn judges at your kids USA swimming meets are not professionals. They are volunteers and are not getting paid. Most are parents. At best they are getting some sort of discount on club fees.

I know, I am one. My point is that it’s ridiculous to compare me to the USA swimming judges, and totally reasonable for me to need more help/fewer lanes!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

At a USA Swim Meet, you don't necessarily have the number of DQs a summer swim meet might have. Think about how many of those 8&us (and even some older kids) are not legal in breast or fly. 4 stroke and turn officials are important to make sure that those infractions are caught, not necessarily to punish the kid/team, but so that the coaches and team rep know what the kid is doing wrong and they can improve. We do a lot of DQs at B meets and we check off every infraction so the coaches have a better understanding of what the swimmer is doing incorrectly. It's also not that hard for most teams to staff officials...oddly enough it's timers for those long long B meets.

Also at a USA swimming meet you have professional judges who are passionate about swimming and probably swam themselves.

I have never swum competitively. I might be legal in 25 m freestyle and backstroke but nothing else. I am not passionate at all about swimming, just about my kids being happy. I am very able to believe that a paid judge could watch more lanes than me!

The stroke and turn judges at your kids USA swimming meets are not professionals. They are volunteers and are not getting paid. Most are parents. At best they are getting some sort of discount on club fees.

I know, I am one. My point is that it’s ridiculous to compare me to the USA swimming judges, and totally reasonable for me to need more help/fewer lanes!

Huh? Are you a USA swimming judge or a summer swim judge?