Families that never volunteer - swim team

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?

This is nonsensical, a USA swim meet is different than recreation and has different standards that need to be met to qualify as a USA swim meet. None of those standards apply to summer league swim except MCSL Coaches Long Course, which is why it’s a USA swimming sanctioned meet. Pretending that a summer league B meet needs to be run like a club swim meet is ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
This is nonsensical, a USA swim meet is different than recreation and has different standards that need to be met to qualify as a USA swim meet. None of those standards apply to summer league swim except MCSL Coaches Long Course, which is why it’s a USA swimming sanctioned meet. Pretending that a summer league B meet needs to be run like a club swim meet is ridiculous.

Translation: I want my child to participate in summer swim but I don't like the rules. Please change the rules to accommodate my family.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

Sure and most USA swimming meets are also the equivalent of rec, why bother with touchpads and backup timers? One person with a stopwatch is good enough, right?

Who said that? Obviously, usa swimming meets are not the equivalent of rec. All the officials had to go through a lot more training than summer swim officials. The equipment for pads and buttons are costly and have to be maintained properly. Summer swim times might be important to you and your child, but they are only important within your summer league. USA swimming times are official times that can stand in national records and be used to qualify for anything from zones to sectionals to junior nationals to Olympic trials.

And they aren’t official because of touchpads. They are official because the whole meet is sanctioned by USA swimming and follows their guidelines, down to blocks, age standards, stroke and turn official training, seeding mechanisms, dq procedures, timing adjustments, type of timing equipment, etc. They even dictate how rounding occurs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

The number of times where someone clearly touches the wall first but loses due to differences in timers will go up a ton and frustrate a hundred kids each time. No thanks. I’d rather volunteer to be a timer/judge or whatever is needed. If this is what you want to do, quit your summer swim team, gather some likeminded kids and have them do races at the pool while you time them.

Honestly I time at every meet and there is rarely a huge disparity between the 3 watches, it is generally all within a tenth of a second. Any disparity usually is when someone admittedly is watching their kid and forgets to stop the watch on the kid in their lane. A single timer would just have to be more conscientious about it.

[Anonymous]

For those of you who are saying it should change, are you prepared to do the work, and spend the costs to make those changes?

Because it feels like you're asking group of "volunteers"* to do more work to change things up so that you don't have to do any work.

* As someone who volunteers a fair amount for things unrelated to my kid, I feel like mandatory parent participation that directly benefits your own kid isn't exactly volunteering. This isn't something I'm doing for the greater benefit of society, it's the cost of entry into an activity that benefits my own kids. I pay that cost because they like the activity and it's what I can afford. Calling it "volunteering", to me, is like calling the fees I pay for summer camp "donations". They aren't donations. They're the cost of the activity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
This is nonsensical, a USA swim meet is different than recreation and has different standards that need to be met to qualify as a USA swim meet. None of those standards apply to summer league swim except MCSL Coaches Long Course, which is why it’s a USA swimming sanctioned meet. Pretending that a summer league B meet needs to be run like a club swim meet is ridiculous.

Translation: I want my child to participate in summer swim but I don't like the rules. Please change the rules to accommodate my family.

No, I’m pointing out that your argument that summer swim meets and USA swim meets are equivalent and need to be run the same is patently absurd.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:For those of you who are saying it should change, are you prepared to do the work, and spend the costs to make those changes?

Because it feels like you're asking group of "volunteers"* to do more work to change things up so that you don't have to do any work.

* As someone who volunteers a fair amount for things unrelated to my kid, I feel like mandatory parent participation that directly benefits your own kid isn't exactly volunteering. This isn't something I'm doing for the greater benefit of society, it's the cost of entry into an activity that benefits my own kids. I pay that cost because they like the activity and it's what I can afford. Calling it "volunteering", to me, is like calling the fees I pay for summer camp "donations". They aren't donations. They're the cost of the activity.

I’m not necessarily saying it needs to change, I time at every meet and I don’t mind doing it because it makes the time go faster. However, I understand the argument that the number of volunteer positions at swim meets seems excessive. Sure, there are some things that are necessities, but maybe 18 timers isn’t really necessary.

[Anonymous]

In NVSL the A meets are run by NVSL rules, but the B meets don't have to be.

If you don't like having three timers per lane for your B meets, talk to your team reps and propose a change. There is absolutely nothing that would keep a team from having one timer per lane for time trials. And all you need to do is convince the other team to have one timer per lane at a B meet.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

If you only had two timers per lane at a pool with no touchpads, instead of just taking the middle time, those two times would have to be averaged after every, single swim. And the table workers would have to confirm every single one of those those averages.

Wait. Are you saying that every single lane in a local kids swim meet has three adults standing there timing each kid? So like 15 adults timing a bunch of 8 year olds swimming across their local pool? That's.... insane.
Will some kid get stuck with a timer with a slow finger now and then? Yeah, probably. Just like every pitcher has to deal with umpires who don't know the strike zone and every soccer team has refs that make crappy calls. That's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

The number of times where someone clearly touches the wall first but loses due to differences in timers will go up a ton and frustrate a hundred kids each time. No thanks. I’d rather volunteer to be a timer/judge or whatever is needed. If this is what you want to do, quit your summer swim team, gather some likeminded kids and have them do races at the pool while you time them.

Honestly I time at every meet and there is rarely a huge disparity between the 3 watches, it is generally all within a tenth of a second. Any disparity usually is when someone admittedly is watching their kid and forgets to stop the watch on the kid in their lane. A single timer would just have to be more conscientious about it.

I time frequently as well. They are not almost always within a tenth of a second. There are times when the difference between the slowest and fastest watch can be much larger (i remember times at the last meet where the differences were a third of a second or larger). So if you have a fast timer in one lane and a slow one in another the differences can be fairly large. Meanwhile observers’ eyes can spot when someone won by less than a tenth of a second.

And then not only is everyone frustrated by the result, but they also have a person to be angry at. I wouldn’t volunteer to time in that kind of situation.

Frankly if NVSL went to this method, we’d probably quit. You can call it just a for fun rec league, but to the kids the winning and competitive aspect is huge. This would destroy that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entitlement on this thread is insane. The fact remains that summer swim teams rely on many volunteers throughout the season. If everyone said f it, this team takes the volunteer commitment too seriously, then it won’t happen. The team shuts down.

What’s wrong with showing and investing in your kids’ activities? Summer swim is a community thing, invest in it or don’t participate.

Always the same parents that step up to help. It’s a shame, what are you teaching your children?

So selfish.

It's a bandwidth thing. Thankfully our team isn't run by people like you.

Your team is run by volunteers like PP and me, and we all have important jobs and a million other things to do. The difference is that we invest our time and effort in our communities and our kids, while you don’t. Maybe get off DCUM and do something productive with your time.

I can't. I literally can't. I would if I could. Does attacking a struggling person make you feel better?

Respectfully, getting out of your own head and helping others is exactly what you need.

What if it's not just in her head? You don't know.

You don't know if she has cancer, chronic daily migraines, somebody dying, a wrecking ball hit her house, divorcing, working 75 hours a week, tied up volunteering to give impoverished kids free surgeries to correct birth defects or representing battered women in court, or is some top secret CIA mixed martial arts lady in the middle of fighting some foreign adversary dude hanging off a balcony like Jason Bourne. You just don't know.

I've got one of those issues daily and have had multiple of those issues at one time and I find ways to volunteer at home. And, sure, its great to be a surgeon volunteering or a lawyer volunteering your time to help others, but that shouldn't be at the expense of your kids, who also need your attention and support and part of that is if you have them summer swim and the expectation is you help out there, since you are such a generous and giving person, no reason you cannot help out on swim team. Really, its less than two months.

Ok. Cases are in trial. Should I ask the judge for a continuance for summer swim team? Aside from death of parent, another parent just paralyzed weeks ago, my long covid, plus a wrecking ball to my house. Maybe that can get a continuance to show face to the swim mommies with nothing better to do then feign business and moral superiority?

A wrecking ball hit your house?

And you are in court on Saturday mornings?

I am very sorry about these things. I would have thought that the house hit by a wrecking ball would have made the news though.

I do pro bono on weekends, because I can't do it during my FT lawyer job hours, which also requires overtime work on yes weekends. I work days, nights, and weekends. Sorry moms like me can't tackle more urgent needs facing the swim community. Perhaps a call to your elected officials could bring about change for this important issue of absent swim moms devastating local swim teams. And 7 On Your Side.

So.
Then.
Your.
Kids.
Don’t.
Do.
Swim.
Team.
If.
You.
And/Or.
Their.
Other.
Parent.
Or.
Other.
Family.
Member.
Can’t.
Or.
Won’t.
Meet.
The.
Volunteer.
Requirements.

I’m so glad I could help clear this up for you.

Oh, shut up.

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP who whined about the "volunteer" requirement.

I wonder if a better way to think of it as opposed to an activity run by volunteers, is as an a parent-child activity. It's an activity that is designed for families to do together, and doing it together is what some of us love.

Think of it like a parent-toddler gymnastics class that runs at 10 a.m. on a weekday. If a family where both parents are at work at 10 a.m. on weekdays announced that it was "so elitist" and that they were going to drop off and let the "volunteers" sit next to their child and help him on the balance beam, and take him to the bathroom, or better yet that they were going to come and sit over on the edge and video tape because they were tired from their jobs, or that the other parents should do some fundraising and hire helpers for those poor rich kids whose parents are working, everyone would realize that was absurd.

Now, if someone and their kid is signed up, and they break their leg, or are 9 months pregnant, or their mom is in the hospital, then a lot of people in parent-toddler class would step up. Because they are probably decent people. And that happens a lot in summer swim.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

The number of times where someone clearly touches the wall first but loses due to differences in timers will go up a ton and frustrate a hundred kids each time. No thanks. I’d rather volunteer to be a timer/judge or whatever is needed. If this is what you want to do, quit your summer swim team, gather some likeminded kids and have them do races at the pool while you time them.

Honestly I time at every meet and there is rarely a huge disparity between the 3 watches, it is generally all within a tenth of a second. Any disparity usually is when someone admittedly is watching their kid and forgets to stop the watch on the kid in their lane. A single timer would just have to be more conscientious about it.

I time frequently as well. They are not almost always within a tenth of a second. There are times when the difference between the slowest and fastest watch can be much larger (i remember times at the last meet where the differences were a third of a second or larger). So if you have a fast timer in one lane and a slow one in another the differences can be fairly large. Meanwhile observers’ eyes can spot when someone won by less than a tenth of a second.

And then not only is everyone frustrated by the result, but they also have a person to be angry at. I wouldn’t volunteer to time in that kind of situation.

Frankly if NVSL went to this method, we’d probably quit. You can call it just a for fun rec league, but to the kids the winning and competitive aspect is huge. This would destroy that.

Perhaps your timers just suck then. It is just a fun rec league, but it is the crazy parents that turn it into something different. Kids that want the super competitive experience swim club.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The number of officials and timers required for summer swim meets seems overly excessive for a rec league. Even for USA swimming, dual meets only require 3-4 officials and 2 timers per lane. Regular timed final meets only require 4 officials. Are summer swim meet times official as per USA swimming? If not, I would advise to drop the dog pony show of 3 watches per lane and so many stroke and turn officials. Those stopwatch times, whether one or three, are not very accurate anyway. They are almost always faster than the real time.

Do you really not understand that the two timers are backups for the touchpad in higher-level swim?

I do, actually, because I am a usa swimming official. My point is that summer swim meets are not USA swimming meets, so they don’t follow the same rules. The officials do not need to be USA swimming officials, the pools don’t have to be standard size, the age rules are not followed, etc etc. So why do you have to follow their timing rules?

In USA swimming meets, you need 3 watches if there are no primary or secondary automated or semi automated timing systems. Why can’t summer swim only have one timer? Accuracy isn’t a great answer because as I said before, watch times are not even very accurate. And having three timers just ensures that people will get complacent and make mistakes. The officials also note order of finish to confirm or question watch times.

Arguing that you need 3 timers because it’s tedious to average 2 watch times is a weak argument. Anyway, meet manager will do the calculation, so it’s more a matter of data entry. Meet manager takes one backup time, averages two backup times, or takes the median of 3 backup times when there is no primary time. It’s easier to take one watch time than to inspect 3 watch times for the median, but that not the reason to go to one timer. It’s to alleviate the volunteer burden, which is obviously an issue because so so so many people complain about it.

FYI, minimum number officials for usa swim meets


https://www.usaswimming.org/docs/default-source/officialsdocuments/misc-officials/meet-considerations-clarification.pdf

Summer swim is a team sport. Teams are competing against each other to win. After every race, the times are posted on timing boards so people can see who got 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Kids freak out at close races. It’s fun. By averaging the times in software you are removing that whole element in swimming and making it much more like the boring club meets all the rest of the year. No thanks. If this is how you feel, stick with club swim and skip the fun summer swim.

It’s not fair to the athletes in summer swim to act like their times don’t matter. They do. The kids care.

I mean you can still just use the time from a single stopwatch. It won’t change the fun of summer swim or posting times on the board. This is recreational swim, just like little league has teen umpires, using 1 watch per lane for summer swim would not be some kind of catastrophe.

The number of times where someone clearly touches the wall first but loses due to differences in timers will go up a ton and frustrate a hundred kids each time. No thanks. I’d rather volunteer to be a timer/judge or whatever is needed. If this is what you want to do, quit your summer swim team, gather some likeminded kids and have them do races at the pool while you time them.

Honestly I time at every meet and there is rarely a huge disparity between the 3 watches, it is generally all within a tenth of a second. Any disparity usually is when someone admittedly is watching their kid and forgets to stop the watch on the kid in their lane. A single timer would just have to be more conscientious about it.

I time frequently as well. They are not almost always within a tenth of a second. There are times when the difference between the slowest and fastest watch can be much larger (i remember times at the last meet where the differences were a third of a second or larger). So if you have a fast timer in one lane and a slow one in another the differences can be fairly large. Meanwhile observers’ eyes can spot when someone won by less than a tenth of a second.

And then not only is everyone frustrated by the result, but they also have a person to be angry at. I wouldn’t volunteer to time in that kind of situation.

Frankly if NVSL went to this method, we’d probably quit. You can call it just a for fun rec league, but to the kids the winning and competitive aspect is huge. This would destroy that.

Perhaps your timers just suck then. It is just a fun rec league, but it is the crazy parents that turn it into something different. Kids that want the super competitive experience swim club.

Club swim is a completely different experience. You are swimming entirely for yourself not your team. You don’t have your whole team cheering you on in a close race. If you have a bad day, it doesn’t affect your team, it just means you didn’t get a new personal best, but can try again at the next meet.

[Anonymous]

It's completely OK for summer swim to be different from USA Swimming. The rules and expectations are out there and publicized for both. Summer coaches and reps who are fair and transparent help people understand what happens and why. And folks who prefer the organization of USA Swimming never _have_ to swim summer league. In fact, no one has to swim summer league. The kids - including the super-fast ones who really don't need to commit time and energy to racking up non-USA swim times - do it because they want to.

Our team doesn't track volunteer hours but the reps know who's involved. We have signups for things on our Swimtopia site but most often I just turn up and lend a hand to whatever seems to need it, or grab a watch when we're short a timer. If you looked me up in the system I'd look like I'm never doing anything, but in reality I feel guilty if I'm sitting around too much.