Is this going too far? Always removes Venus symbol to acknowledge transmen who menstruate

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

It's fine, notwithstanding the You're A Misogynist If You Don't Understand How Removing The Venus Symbol From Menstrual Products Erases Women poster.

What does this post even mean?

- not the poster you reference

You'd have to read the previous 29 pages to understand, and I'm certain that you have better things to do with your time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

It's fine, notwithstanding the You're A Misogynist If You Don't Understand How Removing The Venus Symbol From Menstrual Products Erases Women poster.

What does this post even mean?

- not the poster you reference

You'd have to read the previous 29 pages to understand, and I'm certain that you have better things to do with your time.

I have and have been actively participating and still have no idea what you're saying.

Are you the virtually incomprehensible shirlington poster?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

Actually, when you look at the stats, they’re not. Transwomen are less likely to be assaulted than natal women. An exception is transwomen who participate in sex work. They are more likely to be assaulted than a natal woman who does not participate in sex work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

Actually, when you look at the stats, they’re not. Transwomen are less likely to be assaulted than natal women. An exception is transwomen who participate in sex work. They are more likely to be assaulted than a natal woman who does not participate in sex work.

"Natal women"? Who comes up with this stuff?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

No? Is it now up for debate that women are disproportionately likely to be the victims of crime caused by men? Is that not okay to talk about now?

[Anonymous]

Someone said it upthread - the Venus symbol stands for female, not woman. We use it in medicine all the time. Females menstruate. That is a biological fact. You may feel like a man, but biologically you are female and you menstruate. I’m not sure how removing the female symbol will help anything.

[Anonymous]

"Natal women" is TERF speak. If someone who actual cares about trans people wants to make the distinction they'll say cis women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

Actually, when you look at the stats, they’re not. Transwomen are less likely to be assaulted than natal women. An exception is transwomen who participate in sex work. They are more likely to be assaulted than a natal woman who does not participate in sex work.

Men are subjected to violence more than women by a large margin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Natal women" is TERF speak. If someone who actual cares about trans people wants to make the distinction they'll say cis women.

I’m liberal, but I don’t like cis woman. I’m a woman. Caitlyn Jenner can call herself a woman or a trans woman. Others can call her a woman or trans woman. But I’m a woman. No need to force me to use an additional label. The extra label on me doesn’t make a trans woman feel more included.

Honestly, all these labels only serve to distinguish and divide. We’re just people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Natal women" is TERF speak. If someone who actual cares about trans people wants to make the distinction they'll say cis women.

I’m liberal, but I don’t like cis woman. I’m a woman. Caitlyn Jenner can call herself a woman or a trans woman. Others can call her a woman or trans woman. But I’m a woman. No need to force me to use an additional label. The extra label on me doesn’t make a trans woman feel more included.

Honestly, all these labels only serve to distinguish and divide. We’re just people.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you want to refer to yourself as a woman, then refer to yourself as a woman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Confused NP. What is wrong with talking about rape crisis centers, women's sports, and women's shelters? I don't understand what is so bad about that. Women are disproportionately subject to violence. Is it not okay to talk about that any more?

Don’t you mean trans women (and men) are disproportionately subject to violence?

No? Is it now up for debate that women are disproportionately likely to be the victims of crime caused by men? Is that not okay to talk about now?

Men are disproportionately likely to be the victims of crimes caused by men.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Natal women" is TERF speak. If someone who actual cares about trans people wants to make the distinction they'll say cis women.

I’m liberal, but I don’t like cis woman. I’m a woman. Caitlyn Jenner can call herself a woman or a trans woman. Others can call her a woman or trans woman. But I’m a woman. No need to force me to use an additional label. The extra label on me doesn’t make a trans woman feel more included.

Honestly, all these labels only serve to distinguish and divide. We’re just people.

Nobody is forcing you to do anything. If you want to refer to yourself as a woman, then refer to yourself as a woman.

The point is that the new PC normal is for everyone to use these new terms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Please provide me with evidence they asked women.

Being offended about erasure is not bigoted. Erasure is bigoted.

If you feel erased because a company that sells menstrual products took the Venus symbol off their packaging, I don't know what to say.

Since you're incapable of reading this thread and seeing all the other ways in which biological women have experienced being discounted, made invisible, had their importance or opinions minimized, been discriminated against, I don't know what to say. Except, perhaps a message board isn't the medium for you.

How have women been erased by referring to them as “people” instead of “women”?

because "people" includes men, and the term "women" is meant to distinguish between women and men. do we really have to say this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I can't think of an example that will not come off as extraordinarily insensitive but we do not change language or reality as a result of the way other mental illnesses cause disordered thinking.

It's very difficult to read this comment as anything other than incredibly transphobic, but I might be misunderstanding. A trans person's gender identity isn't "disordered thinking," it's what they are. Trans men are men, period. They also menstruate, so referring to "menstruating people" instead of "women," is changing language to reflect reality.

All of those things do effect menstruating transgendered men. But the conditions in which they effect transgendered men are not the same. If a transgendered man needs tampons that needs to be about being a transgendered man in men's prison. There are no 'women' in men's prisons, using language that is clear is important there.

This is also very confusing. A trans man who is arrested or sentenced could very easily end up in a woman's jail or prison (probably would depending on how he looked, etc.), he'd experience the same thing as a cis woman under the same conditions. It's also 100% untrue that "there are no women in men's prisons," lots of trans women wind up in men's prisons. I'm not sure what you're saying there.

You can say grapes, and you can also say seedless grapes and green grapes and red grapes and moon grapes etc. That you correctly describe something does not mean you are excluding things that don't actually fall into that category.

And that's an argument for referring to "people who menstruate" when you mean everyone who needs access to tampons or "people who can become pregnant" when you mean everyone who needs access to abortion. You don't say "grapes" to mean seedless grapes only. If you mean cis women say cis women, if you mean everyone who has periods say that. There's no plausible argument that the traditional language is more accurate, because both men and women have periods, get abortions, etc., and saying "women" is both under and over inclusive if what you mean has something to with reproductive organs specifically.

You're also never explain why bringing trans men under the umbrella of "people who menstruate" impacts cis women who also menstruate in the least. The argument is very hand wavy.

I don't think you are misunderstanding me. You yourself cited dysphoria as the cause for those feelings and acknowledge that today it exists as a diagnosis in the DSM. I think that there is a large stigma on mental illness in the United States that makes the conversation around this issue extremely difficult. To me there is no conflict between the idea that being born transgender means you have been born with a mental illness and the idea that people who are transgendered should be able to treat that condition how they like and live their life as they want. A person who is born transgendered but who is happy when living life as a member of the opposite sex to whatever surgical or hormonal degree they choose should be able to do so with only the input of their own chosen medical professionals. I don't think that this makes me transphobic. I have a different belief about the origin of the condition than you do, but no different beliefs about how they should be treated by society. And I think the issue with labeling that origin has more to do with prejudices that I think are terrible about the way our brain works and how we talk about it when something happens in the human brain that is not neurotypical.

I think that trans women have different medical needs than women who were born biologically female. I think that women are not equal to men and that we need to advocate for women's rights and trans rights and LGB rights and rights for black and hispanic and asian people. I suppose you are correct we can just start saying cis women and trans women sure. It seems impractical to me to create that distinction and impose it on all language in order to accommodate a very small amount of people. But in reality I don't think that will ever happen for that reason. So in that sense you're right silly to be arguing about something that is unlikely to happen. But I do wonder if you feel the same way about men's products. Shampoo for men, old spice, whatever. Are you advocating for complete gender neutrality?

I am not arguing that trans women can't call themselves women, just that trans men shouldn't call themselves women. Because by their own desire they don't want to be women, they don't feel like they are women. Menstruating makes them uncomfortable because, as you say, it is so defining of being a woman. The very fact that trans gendered people is a thing that happens is because there is a difference between men and women. We will never live in complete neutrality. And imposing complete neutrality also denies the experience of many people. There is no language that will never hurt anyone.

Women need to talk about being women because women still need advocacy. I, and I think a lot of other posters, are happy to include trans women in that advocacy. But not by forgoing the word woman in favor of the word 'person' because men are the group that has control over women. Men are the people who have prioritized their rights over women. So women need to advocate FOR WOMEN. Include trans women and men who are transitioning in that, that is fine. No problem. But I will not start saying pregnant person instead of pregnant woman because pregnancy has been both the gift and the curse of women. You want to erase the distinction that is central to women's rights advocacy. I would have less of an issue with saying 'pregnant men and women' than I do with the idea of saying 'pregnant people'.

I agree with your last line. "Pregnant men and women." Go for it. As well as menstrual products branded with the Mars symbol. Why not?

What about non-binary people who menstruate?

Why not be more inclusive? It doesn’t really “erase women”.

Because men and women are not equal I'm today's society and therefore differentiating between them and advocating for women's rights is still and important and critical thing.

I assume black people don't want to stop calling themselves black because other races and biracial people also have similar experiences.

Equal pay for everyone.
Bodily autonomy for everyone.

Is the message really lost there? Equality is equality.

so you're saying all lives matter, basically? interesting. hard to keep up with the rhetoric.