More MOCO Upzoning - Starting in Silver Spring

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

We should build housing to support bus stop construction?

This is the point of the veiled multi-pronged development approach. If they tried to get the whole development idea approved, it would encounter too much resistance.

What's veiled about it? More housing to support more transit. More transit, supported by more housing. It's an explicit policy goal, and I support it.

Attacking it piecemeal -- state legislation. MoCo legislation, MoCo Zoning Text Amendment, MoCo alteration of neighborhood boundaries to strip edges alongside larger roads into their own development-consideration zones, pursuit of BRT, Thrive, Vision Zero, one corridor taken at a time ("First, they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out, for I was not a socialist..."), etc. Each may have noble elements (though efforts to keep those but preserve other interests largely were brushed aside) and each, independently, may have passed notice for one reason or another, but, taken together, the impacts are such that they never would pass if presented as a whole -- "this is what your communities might experience with where we are going"-type stuff

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

We should build housing to support bus stop construction?

This is the point of the veiled multi-pronged development approach. If they tried to get the whole development idea approved, it would encounter too much resistance.

What's veiled about it? More housing to support more transit. More transit, supported by more housing. It's an explicit policy goal, and I support it.

More housing to support more transit?

This is like Idiocracy.

“BRT, IT’S WHAT YImBYs CRAVE.”

[Anonymous]

I thought downtown Silver Spring was the new exciting idea? Now this? What next? A mess.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

We should build housing to support bus stop construction?

This is the point of the veiled multi-pronged development approach. If they tried to get the whole development idea approved, it would encounter too much resistance.

What's veiled about it? More housing to support more transit. More transit, supported by more housing. It's an explicit policy goal, and I support it.

More housing to support more transit?

This is like Idiocracy.

“BRT, IT’S WHAT YImBYs CRAVE.”

TOD is so popular because developers love it. It allows selected upzoning that makes them richer while also protecting their development from market competition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

Density doesn't solve anything but making it easier to redevelop the core area can help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

The planners live in this fantasy world where they think there is high demand for someone to go from White Oak and o Rockville Town Center. Or that somehow the decrepit nature of these “town centers” are due to a lack of public transit options, combined with transit oriented low-income housing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

Density doesn't solve anything but making it easier to redevelop the core area can help.

I cannot think of anything that would hurt Wheaton more than decreasing car access. Intentionally creating these islands cut off from other areas except for limited transit connections is literally what political enclaves are and they well studied and never prosperous. This is a recipe for ghettoization of poverty.
https://www.worldfinance.com/markets/separate-from-the-rest

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

Density doesn't solve anything but making it easier to redevelop the core area can help.

I cannot think of anything that would hurt Wheaton more than decreasing car access. Intentionally creating these islands cut off from other areas except for limited transit connections is literally what political enclaves are and they well studied and never prosperous. This is a recipe for ghettoization of poverty.
https://www.worldfinance.com/markets/separate-from-the-rest

I agree. Ironically de-islandizing them is theoretically the point of the bus thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

Those buses are pretty empty as are most ride-on buses. Ride-on services only 50k-65k trips a year. To PP’s point, they would service more trips if people could take ride-on to their jobs in MoCo instead of having to transfer to metro to get to DC or Va.

What you're saying is, "I don't take the bus, I drive." Try taking the bus.

Since the pandemic, all forms of transportation except driving are way down in the DMV. Biking is less popular. The subway is less popular. Buses are less popular. Everything is less popular except driving a car.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

Density doesn't solve anything but making it easier to redevelop the core area can help.

Only if we attract more jobs. Housing doesn’t attract jobs. I wish it did because rents are cheaper here than Fairfax or DC. Job attract housing. If you want more housing advocate for policies that increase private sector employment. Otherwise, this will just be an overflow market for Fairfax and DC, and developers will treat it accordingly by not producing very much.

[Anonymous]

Wow, that presentation was even nuttier than I expected. If you didn’t attend, please watch the recording.

Sixty to seventy foot tall mixed use buildings in 4 Corners? Duplexes, quads and six plexes in the 4 Corners neighborhoods?

lol…all enabled by the magic bus? it’s insane.

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Anonymous wrote:PP, this is an argument for never allowing any change, on grounds that the change would be change.

But change happens, one way or the other, even if you don't allow it.

And we don't give current residents veto power over the future.

No. It is an argument for change to come with proper input, principally from those most directly affected. Government by consent of the governed-type stuff.

This involves well-informed compromise, neither veto from the one side nor railroading from the other -- which largely is what we see, today, with limited exception for those most wealthy/powerful.

The Planning Department RIGHT NOW is collecting that input. Everyone has their opportunity RIGHT NOW to offer their input. Actually everyone has had their opportunity to offer their input for well over a year, but there is even more opportunity RIGHT NOW.

Government by consent of the governed comes when the Montgomery County Council, which is elected by the voters of Montgomery County, officially adopts the plan.

Great. Then right now, there should have been:

Postcards received 2-3 weeks ago by all of the residents of neighborhoods of which any of the study might reasonably be considered a part (this clearly did not happen),

Providing the kind of reasonably fullsome understanding as noted above (e.g., 3 suggested visualizations with public facility impacts), and

Allowance for meetings long enough to permit free-form input from any of those residents who wish to provide it and all of that input considered for changes to the scope of the study, itself, as that requisite level of impact awareness was not a part of the well-over-a-year part of the engagement.

The County Council is politically astute enough (as is the planning board) to make sure that the public engagement box has been checked (you don't see presentations on these matters without a slide showing that timeline) so that they can claim consent of the governed. Those in the system, Councilmember and otherwise, are also politically astute enough to adopt approaches that limit likely opposition to their policy aims.

Well, no, the County Council gets the consent of the governed when the County Council gets elected.

If I were you, I would stop complaining about the community engagement that I thought the Planning Department should have done, and start engaging with the community engagement that the Planning Department is actually doing.

When the decisions are made ahead of time it is no longer community "engagement" but rather community management.

What decisions have been made ahead of time, who has made these decisions, and how do you know?

It sounds like you'd rather complain about the process than engage in the process.

The expansive definition of transit center.

Density in White Oak, Silver Spring, etc is good and useful. Density along the in between stops is not and cannibalizes efforts to revitalize the hubs.

The proposed STATIONS (not "centers", not "stops") in the Countywide Transit Corridors Functional Plan are at University Boulevard and

-Amherst Ave
-Inwood Ave
-Arcola Ave
-Dennis Ave
-Colesville Rd

They are bus stops. It's this sort of word game that annoys people.

The word game is being played by you, and yes, it's annoying me. You are deliberately using "bus stop" as misinformation.

People who want to know the difference between a bus "stop" and a BRT "station" can go look at Columbia Pike next to Trader Joe's. That permanent construction with the ticket machine? That's a station for the FLASH bus, which is supposed to be BRT, although unfortunately it mostly isn't, because it has to operate in the same lane as cars. That sign on a pole, near a bus shelter? That's a bus stop for the Z Metrobuses and the 21 and 22 RideOn buses.

They're still bus stops. They have the potential to be something more down the line if the system works. At this point in time it is foolish to jump the gun on density with regard to the potential of those peripheral stops. The success of the project hinges on the big core terminuses that connect to the metro, beltway, etc.

You know what will really help the BRT system to work? More housing around BRT stations.

Only if there is some place to take it. The core is what drives traffic.

There are places to take it. You could ride the C buses and ask people where they're going.

I know all three of the proposed BRT runs very well. Central Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak are the key hubs. It will thrive or die based on them not the in-between stops. All efforts to increase density and developmemt should be focused on the hubs if you want it to succeed. The ones that also happen to have metro, beltway access, and transit centers.

Which is not the same as saying "I frequently ride the C buses and the Z buses." How frequently do you take the bus?

I have lived there, I have family that lives there and I have friends that live there. I have driven there, I drive there, I have taken the bus there, I take the bus there, I have walked there and I walk there. Moreover, I also know the overseas bus systems this idea was based on so I know what it is trying to achieve.

The point of this bus line is to connect Rockville. Wheaton, Silver Spring and White Oak. It's a real multi-modal transportation idea that connects the core economic and transit centers of Montgomery County. I care that it works out. You do not seem to.

The problem is the fact that the economic centers are jokes. That’s why bus ridership is well below capacity. If there were more jobs in these places then there would be more people riding.

That's my point. For this effort to work development needs to be lazer focused on those core areas. Core areas that did not need a fake definition because they are what the original legislation was targeting.

But the core areas don’t have enough jobs right now. Building more housing isn’t going to change that.

Density doesn't solve anything but making it easier to redevelop the core area can help.

Only if we attract more jobs. Housing doesn’t attract jobs. I wish it did because rents are cheaper here than Fairfax or DC. Job attract housing. If you want more housing advocate for policies that increase private sector employment. Otherwise, this will just be an overflow market for Fairfax and DC, and developers will treat it accordingly by not producing very much.

I agree. That's one of the reasons why I think this new definition is a bad idea.

But, I also see a lot in common with Seven Corners and Falls Church.