Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Totally wrong.
Most students will take the test multiple times, and if scores are low, then hide it.

The SAT will become less relevant. Already headed in that direction ( posters citing MIT won't change that).

The UMC whites and Asians will spend on test prep and take the test multiple times. Most URMs and/or first gens will not. And they'll still get accepted because of their academic profile , ECs and essays AND for diversity.

Not much will change. The elite colleges will still fill their classes the way they want.

The tests are being gamed and should be discontinued. Unless test prep/cheating courses should disqualify any test taker and only one test should be allowed. One chance, no cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if they can't blame URMs, who will DCUM point the finger at for taking their kids' spots at Harvard?

Asians. The Asians thought they were white adjacent. Hahahaha!

Blame Asians for what?
Caring about education and and working hard?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Totally wrong.
Most students will take the test multiple times, and if scores are low, then hide it.

The SAT will become less relevant. Already headed in that direction ( posters citing MIT won't change that).

The UMC whites and Asians will spend on test prep and take the test multiple times. Most URMs and/or first gens will not. And they'll still get accepted because of their academic profile , ECs and essays AND for diversity.

Not much will change. The elite colleges will still fill their classes the way they want.

The tests are being gamed and should be discontinued. Unless test prep/cheating courses should disqualify any test taker and only one test should be allowed. One chance, no cheating.

Essay can be gamed the most. Nobody's even watching you if you actually wrote it or not.

Tests are at least most objective and fair measure.

I agree that need better monitoring and management for catching cheaters.
However studying and preparing is not cheating.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

If Khan Academy's free materials were as good as expensive classes and private tutoring, the UMC/UC parents wouldn't do it.

Trying to make college admissions "fair" is kind of a mug's game though. There's never going to be a level playing field. That's why it's disingenuous to say AA is unfair, but all the other nonsense and hoops that colleges make kids jump through are ok

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

Do the parents or guardians know about these programs? Are their also free sitters and hourly pay for time spent studying?

Many students don't have the luxury of going home and doing nothing, but homework and prep. Some have to work, some have to care for younger siblings, some have to cook dinner and clean up,

That's my short list and I can come up with more. A computer and internet won't compare to private prep done over and over

[Anonymous]

There is no level playing field ever in life. Why are we focused on that? We can make things objective but never level. Tests are tests. If rich kids prep they do and nothing can be done about that. You can note that text scores from certain people don’t equal others. 1500 in McLean is 1100 in SE. you can know that and factor that in to a point but getting rid of tests does not make sense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

If Khan Academy's free materials were as good as expensive classes and private tutoring, the UMC/UC parents wouldn't do it.

Trying to make college admissions "fair" is kind of a mug's game though. There's never going to be a level playing field. That's why it's disingenuous to say AA is unfair, but all the other nonsense and hoops that colleges make kids jump through are ok

You think there might be some sort of secret sauce, but most of the paid prep is basically a way to force your kid to do the practice tests.
I paid 1200 for one kid and 700(online due to pandemic) for another kid for SAT prep during one Summer.
They basically went there to take the practice tests in a group.

My kid went to a crowded public school in Fairfax Co., and probably way disadvantaged compared to the rich kids who went to private schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

If Khan Academy's free materials were as good as expensive classes and private tutoring, the UMC/UC parents wouldn't do it.

Trying to make college admissions "fair" is kind of a mug's game though. There's never going to be a level playing field. That's why it's disingenuous to say AA is unfair, but all the other nonsense and hoops that colleges make kids jump through are ok

You think there might be some sort of secret sauce, but most of the paid prep is basically a way to force your kid to do the practice tests.
I paid 1200 for one kid and 700(online due to pandemic) for another kid for SAT prep during one Summer.
They basically went there to take the practice tests in a group.

My kid went to a crowded public school in Fairfax Co., and probably way disadvantaged compared to the rich kids who went to private schools

oh and I don't ask extra points compared to the private school kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:But if they can't blame URMs, who will DCUM point the finger at for taking their kids' spots at Harvard?

Legacy is the next target

Lots of DCUMs have legacy kids and they are of all different races.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This thread is too long to read, but my opinion is that AA should be removed because it always makes the minorities "less than". I mean that they are always perceived to have been given an unfair leg up and the perception (often incorrect) is that they were only admitted because they were Black etc. Many of these kids are equally as smart as other kids and don not deserve any kind of asterix next to their name.
I think the playing field should be level so it is known that everyone there has earned their spot. Maybe AA was required years ago when there really was a different in opportunity but now there are so many qualified minorities and access to testing materials is free (Khan Academy) for anyone who wants it, so I don't think AA is required anymore. It is outdated in my opinion and I actually think it does more damage than good by being divisive.

A computer and internet access are not.

There is already free internet program for low income household and computer loan program.

Next.

Do the parents or guardians know about these programs? Are their also free sitters and hourly pay for time spent studying?

Many students don't have the luxury of going home and doing nothing, but homework and prep. Some have to work, some have to care for younger siblings, some have to cook dinner and clean up,

That's my short list and I can come up with more. A computer and internet won't compare to private prep done over and over

and there are plenty of good colleges and financial aid for these kids.
No need to punish and discriminate middle class kids because of that.

[Anonymous]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Did she get extra points?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Higher education shoud be mainly for acedemic merit and must be color blind.

"Of 35,000 applicants competing for 1,600 spots in the class of 2019, 2,700 had perfect verbal SAT scores; 3,400 had perfect math SAT scores; more than 8,000 had perfect GPAs."

From the facts in the actual case. Now what?

But that are the scores of the applicants. What are the verbal SAT, math SAT, and GPA of the admitted students?

Why does that matter. Harvard would not be able to fill its seats based merely on a formula on "objective" scores like SAT scores or GPA. If they only considered perfect GPA or perfect SAT scores or whatever, they would still have to choose between applicants to fill their class. And they, as a private institution, should be able to decide that these scores are not what they are looking for in a student body. They have determined that their formula for selecting Harvard students tries to suss out potential to make an impact in some way or the other. They may be wrong. And if they are wrong, their brand value will go down. Let the market determine if their strategy is successful or not.

It matters because Harvard admitted students with very low scores in the name of R

Why can't Harvard admit students who have low test scores or no test scores at all?

They can as long as they don't discriminate against race

And the courts have found that they do not.

Sorry we have Supreme Court going on right now.
It's called 'Supreme' for a reason.

Yes, they are deciding whether or not to change decided precedent. That means these schools followed the law as it was, which is what the lower courts found. But now, this new Supreme Court may decided to change the established law (even though they aren't supposed to do that). I would not anticipate a retroactive application of it if they do change the law though.

Nope, they don't change the law.
Law makers change the law.

Yes, they do. When the overturn settled precedent, they are changing the law.

No, they can overturn precedent because it violates Constitution.
It's not making law.

And when that happens and there are no people of certain races admitted to elite colleges, then they sue, and win, (because that is absolute proof of systemic societal racism) what happens then?

No it's not absolute proof of systemic societal racism.

NBA has only 0.4% of Asians.
Is that absolute proof of systemic societal racism?

The NBA argument? Really? That's all you got?

Dumbest argument ever.

Try again.

I'm interested. Why NBA shouldn't be diverse to reflect population?

No, you are humping a strawman which is entirely irrelevant for reasons you absolutely know, and I won't engage to allow you to gish gallop past the relevant point. Stop being pathetic. Try yet again.

Nope, PP has a very relevant point. Why is there a severe lack of diversity in a billion dollar industry like the NBA? Hardly any Hispanics, Asians, etc. Why is the NBA exempt from diversity that reflects the country?


Oh that's right, because the NBA only wants the best players based on their merits regardless of their race. Funny how that works in a billion dollars sports industry, yet we don't apply the same logic at universities.

Sigh. Go ahead, join in on the stupid.

There have been many instances of racism in employment in professional sports throughout history. Maybe you've heard of Jackie Robinson?

Stupid, stupid argument. Please don't make this point where people know who you are. I tell you this for your own good.

Yes racism is bad.
Also it's not absolute proof of systemic societal racism just because a certain race is severely underrepresented.

Is a diverse class important? That is subjective. In Harvard's view, it is valuable. It is not against the law to believe this is an important attribute of a class. If they need to change their criteria to achieve that, ok.

You think the highest test scores are the most valuable criteria but that is also subjective.

Agreed. They will find another way to get the diversity they seek.

They better find a way to be more careful or they'll just lose the next lawsuit too,

Diversity is not against the law

Using race in admissions is about to be

NP Yes, it looks that way. Colleges can look to the states that have already made it illegal. The UCs found a way to diversity students when their numbers dropped due to the new law of not allowing race based admissions. Colleges already have a successful blueprint to use and keep things legal. Everybody wins.

Non-asian minorities are very underrepresented at top UC schools in comparison to the population of California. Black students are also underrepresented at top UC schools compared to similar institutions.