Top Level Goalie Questions (Girls)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I think of someone saying "tall" is needed, it's not ONLY thing, it's the addition of the regular traits taught to a keeper accompanying the height. You can show a keeper literally everything except height. I can help your quickness, IQ, defense alignment... but dammit, I cannot teach you to get your hand on the crossbar to stop a high shot. Period.

The trouble is, most of your taller youth keepers fundamentally lack quickness and power because they simply have grown faster and/or earlier. The rare ones catch up, but you can't tell which ones. I would choose the "athlete" every time, regardless of size.

Classic umbrella statement to just what is your opinion. Like it or not, those keepers diving everywhere have to because they are short. I see taller keepers just calmly stand and raise their arms to catch a ball and easily distribute to a defender. Also, those short keepers have to knock the ball away (albeit athletically) because they can't get their hands around the ball on a dive. A taller, longer, keeper can easily reach and secure the ball. What is diving and athletic to one is seeing someone incapable of an easy catch. Just like taller in basketball as PP said, hand size and height immensely help the keeper position that can very easily make up for lacking in other areas. If you're a keeper on a ECNL team, you're athletic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:ECNL parent here, U15, and I've never watch a game where the other team doesn't switch keepers at halftime. I like, one game Loudoun had one keeper the whole time, but the most recent game, they had two and switched at half. Never seen a single game keeper.

ECNL parent here too. We have two u14 boys who swap at halftime. Neither is what you would call standouts. I think if we had a good goalie our coach would go with one main and one back up that would only be a back up. One has been with us since u9 and his father is the team manager which my play a part in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ECNL parent here, U15, and I've never watch a game where the other team doesn't switch keepers at halftime. I like, one game Loudoun had one keeper the whole time, but the most recent game, they had two and switched at half. Never seen a single game keeper.

ECNL parent here too. We have two u14 boys who swap at halftime. Neither is what you would call standouts. I think if we had a good goalie our coach would go with one main and one back up that would only be a back up. One has been with us since u9 and his father is the team manager which my play a part in it.

the back up would find another team. No kid willingly signs up to ride the bench

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I think of someone saying "tall" is needed, it's not ONLY thing, it's the addition of the regular traits taught to a keeper accompanying the height. You can show a keeper literally everything except height. I can help your quickness, IQ, defense alignment... but dammit, I cannot teach you to get your hand on the crossbar to stop a high shot. Period.

The trouble is, most of your taller youth keepers fundamentally lack quickness and power because they simply have grown faster and/or earlier. The rare ones catch up, but you can't tell which ones. I would choose the "athlete" every time, regardless of size.

I agree except so many smaller players parents see it blindly. They think their small kid is more athletic then they really are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Couple quick questions:

When do ECNL teams start carrying two goalies? U15ish?

And when they do, do they usually split game time, or is there a clear #1 and clear #2?

Most ECNL clubs I have seen carry two keepers at all ages (U13 and up). Any coach worth his salt will know to split playing time pretty much down the middle except for championship games. To do otherwise messes with a GK's confidence level. At our club, there are times when games are split at half time, and there are other times where they alternate full games.

Only difference on our team is that the "starter" plays the second half instead in games which might be decided by penalties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:two per team is 100% normal. No worry about being scouted. As an example, Jeff Cup has keeper specific training day that's an hour and a half of just keepers (usually) in front of scouts. A "great" keeper can easily go a whole game barely touching the ball if the team they play is inferior and you're a great team. Unlike majority of field players who'll get lots of action, keepers are hit or miss. There is no issue with two keepers per team and likely is smart on the coach to do so there isn't a massive gaping hole in your team if they go down. Good luck.

Because opportunities are hit or miss, a keeper should seek to play all the minutes. Splitting time cuts their opportunities to shine in half. Coaches will say they want two, but they really want one great keeper and someone to fill in when that keeper can’t play.

Bollocks. Coaches of competitive teams want one good keeper on hand for every game, regardless of circumstance or injury. The reality, especially for girls youth soccer, is that injuries occur and that means competitive teams need two good keepers on the roster. You don't have to look too far to see that is the case; you just don't see any elite youth, college, or pro teams with only one keeper. Since a big part of being good is the mental part, coaches who understand the position will rotate time equally except for when critical games are on the line. If your team isn't doing this, they either just couldn't find a suitable second keeper, the team isn't playing at a level where depth becomes important, or the coach does not understand how to develop the position.

All players and keepers are seeking to play every minute, that is a given. Nobody plays this game to ride the bench.

I get your perspective, but this leans heavily on having a coach that actually understands the position. I find that hard to come by. Most coaches have no idea what makes a good keeper other than the score line and physical attributes. Having a coach that understands which of their two keepers is actually better is like a unicorn. I've experienced many coaches who don't understand that difference and their better keeper is sitting on the bench in a close/critical game.

I disagree with your premise that a coach only carrying one keeper "doesn't how to develop the position", that they couldn't find a good second, or that they don't play at a high level. Maybe they value consistency over competition as well as stability for their defense. Having competing styles and messages from different keepers can screw up game flow and plan. I believe having 2 (or more) keepers is the norm after u13, but that doesn't mean that system is better than having a single keeper.

Just picking up on the "most coaches have no idea what makes a good keeper". The better clubs have separate GK coaches and split the GKs off for separate training. Might be worth finding such a club if your DC has amibitions to play at a higher level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I think of someone saying "tall" is needed, it's not ONLY thing, it's the addition of the regular traits taught to a keeper accompanying the height. You can show a keeper literally everything except height. I can help your quickness, IQ, defense alignment... but dammit, I cannot teach you to get your hand on the crossbar to stop a high shot. Period.

The trouble is, most of your taller youth keepers fundamentally lack quickness and power because they simply have grown faster and/or earlier. The rare ones catch up, but you can't tell which ones. I would choose the "athlete" every time, regardless of size.

I agree except so many smaller players parents see it blindly. They think their small kid is more athletic then they really are.

I think you're both right to an extent. For the taller player side, that's been my point all along in this thread. Many coaches don't see past the height and don't understand the other qualities that make a great keeper. Yes, you can teach many of those things, but getting them all in one package + height is hard to do. For the smaller player parent thing, it could be true but all parents need to be as realistic about their kid as they can be. Maybe their kid is really more athletic than said comparable tall gk or maybe not, but let the qualified people make that call at the end of the day.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Through 15U most of the clubs will be splitting GKs (assuming they can roster 2 competitive keepers). By 16U, there is usually a starter and a backup. Strong GKs don’t want to be seen splitting time as they enter the recruiting years. There are some exceptions at regionally dominant clubs, but in the DMV that’s not the case. At the older ages clubs have a difficult time finding GKs that are strong.

This. If your DC has aspirations for playing on they need to be the number one GK on their team who plays against the better teams

Agree. By U16 you need to be able to call yourself the starting keeper in convos with coaches. No one at a top soccer school is looking to recruit the second keeper, especially when the colleges are recruiting possible starters only every 2nd or 3rd year. However, t are plenty of GKs recruited as practice players, but usually it’s quite clear that that’s where they’ll remain. Some of those slots may go to second keepers. If that works for your DD that is an option.

Starting is not the same as the number 1 keeper. The second half keeper in a tournament is the one doing PKs

Splitting time is for an average to below average keeper. A good keeper should control the field and needs to be on the field. splitting time adds to confusion as to who the leader is. For those who say its normal to split time dont honestly realize that means you dont have a great keeper your blinded by personal interest.

Sorry - but this is ignorant. The best keepers in northern VA - the ones that are getting invites to YNT tryouts - are splitting time.

Whether that is indeed better for the GK and/or the team is a separate question. My guess is that it is better for the GK not to split time, but better for the team to have two GKs who split time. But to suggest that, if you have two keepers who split time it's because you don't have a great keeper - that's nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When I think of someone saying "tall" is needed, it's not ONLY thing, it's the addition of the regular traits taught to a keeper accompanying the height. You can show a keeper literally everything except height. I can help your quickness, IQ, defense alignment... but dammit, I cannot teach you to get your hand on the crossbar to stop a high shot. Period.

The trouble is, most of your taller youth keepers fundamentally lack quickness and power because they simply have grown faster and/or earlier. The rare ones catch up, but you can't tell which ones. I would choose the "athlete" every time, regardless of size.

I agree except so many smaller players parents see it blindly. They think their small kid is more athletic then they really are.

I think you're both right to an extent. For the taller player side, that's been my point all along in this thread. Many coaches don't see past the height and don't understand the other qualities that make a great keeper. Yes, you can teach many of those things, but getting them all in one package + height is hard to do. For the smaller player parent thing, it could be true but all parents need to be as realistic about their kid as they can be. Maybe their kid is really more athletic than said comparable tall gk or maybe not, but let the qualified people make that call at the end of the day.

it's hard, but each club only needs one or two per age level. We're not talking about needing the equivalent of 7 centers in basketball either, we're talking about kids very above average in height.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not expert but am seeing it depends on the team. My DD team has one who ism average and possibly below average mainly because she is super short. I know the coach would love to add a second goalie to the mix as I don't think this one is a good long term option for this ECNL team. Meanwhile the coach also coaches an older ECNL team that has an amazing goalie. My guess is he would NOT look for another goalie for this team. This goalie is so good she could play anywhere and would be very unhappy with splitting time.

Being short isn't a main pointer to being an average or below average keeper. Obviously being tall may help a keeper more easily cover the corners, but they would still need the other physical attributes to react quickly, dive further, etc. Realistically, being tall lets them play the goal differently than someone who is shorter and it may be more forgiving (ex. they forget their ball line but can still cover far post because of that extra few inches and a quick reaction speed). That being said, you can cover the net if you are on the short side. It's all about body positioning, understanding your ball line, and understanding where you can cover. There are coaches that look at height as the main factor for their gks, and it's just dumb.

Watch good ECNL strikers... so many shots are high. Why? Because overwhelming majority of keepers at about 5'6-5'8" and can't get the crossbar or diagonal upper dive. Height is increasingly important as we continue up the U-brackets and I've seen the taller keepers easily handle good teams because they shoot it shoulder high to crossbar 9 of 10 times.

I've noticed this on boys teams as well. The strikers get into the habit of doing this between about 10 and 13. Then it stops working as the keepers get taller - and it takes some kids a year or two to figure out they need to change their target zone .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I think of someone saying "tall" is needed, it's not ONLY thing, it's the addition of the regular traits taught to a keeper accompanying the height. You can show a keeper literally everything except height. I can help your quickness, IQ, defense alignment... but dammit, I cannot teach you to get your hand on the crossbar to stop a high shot. Period.

I think reaction time is very important as well - and I don't think there's much that can be done to change that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Through 15U most of the clubs will be splitting GKs (assuming they can roster 2 competitive keepers). By 16U, there is usually a starter and a backup. Strong GKs don’t want to be seen splitting time as they enter the recruiting years. There are some exceptions at regionally dominant clubs, but in the DMV that’s not the case. At the older ages clubs have a difficult time finding GKs that are strong.

This. If your DC has aspirations for playing on they need to be the number one GK on their team who plays against the better teams

Agree. By U16 you need to be able to call yourself the starting keeper in convos with coaches. No one at a top soccer school is looking to recruit the second keeper, especially when the colleges are recruiting possible starters only every 2nd or 3rd year. However, t are plenty of GKs recruited as practice players, but usually it’s quite clear that that’s where they’ll remain. Some of those slots may go to second keepers. If that works for your DD that is an option.

Starting is not the same as the number 1 keeper. The second half keeper in a tournament is the one doing PKs

Splitting time is for an average to below average keeper. A good keeper should control the field and needs to be on the field. splitting time adds to confusion as to who the leader is. For those who say its normal to split time dont honestly realize that means you dont have a great keeper your blinded by personal interest.

Sorry - but this is ignorant. The best keepers in northern VA - the ones that are getting invites to YNT tryouts - are splitting time.

Whether that is indeed better for the GK and/or the team is a separate question. My guess is that it is better for the GK not to split time, but better for the team to have two GKs who split time. But to suggest that, if you have two keepers who split time it's because you don't have a great keeper - that's nonsense.

Not at all if you have a great keeper the back up doesn't see action outside a blow out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Through 15U most of the clubs will be splitting GKs (assuming they can roster 2 competitive keepers). By 16U, there is usually a starter and a backup. Strong GKs don’t want to be seen splitting time as they enter the recruiting years. There are some exceptions at regionally dominant clubs, but in the DMV that’s not the case. At the older ages clubs have a difficult time finding GKs that are strong.

This. If your DC has aspirations for playing on they need to be the number one GK on their team who plays against the better teams

Agree. By U16 you need to be able to call yourself the starting keeper in convos with coaches. No one at a top soccer school is looking to recruit the second keeper, especially when the colleges are recruiting possible starters only every 2nd or 3rd year. However, t are plenty of GKs recruited as practice players, but usually it’s quite clear that that’s where they’ll remain. Some of those slots may go to second keepers. If that works for your DD that is an option.

Starting is not the same as the number 1 keeper. The second half keeper in a tournament is the one doing PKs

Splitting time is for an average to below average keeper. A good keeper should control the field and needs to be on the field. splitting time adds to confusion as to who the leader is. For those who say its normal to split time dont honestly realize that means you dont have a great keeper your blinded by personal interest.

Sorry - but this is ignorant. The best keepers in northern VA - the ones that are getting invites to YNT tryouts - are splitting time.

Whether that is indeed better for the GK and/or the team is a separate question. My guess is that it is better for the GK not to split time, but better for the team to have two GKs who split time. But to suggest that, if you have two keepers who split time it's because you don't have a great keeper - that's nonsense.

Do tell, what NOVA GKs are getting YNT call ups?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Through 15U most of the clubs will be splitting GKs (assuming they can roster 2 competitive keepers). By 16U, there is usually a starter and a backup. Strong GKs don’t want to be seen splitting time as they enter the recruiting years. There are some exceptions at regionally dominant clubs, but in the DMV that’s not the case. At the older ages clubs have a difficult time finding GKs that are strong.

This. If your DC has aspirations for playing on they need to be the number one GK on their team who plays against the better teams

Agree. By U16 you need to be able to call yourself the starting keeper in convos with coaches. No one at a top soccer school is looking to recruit the second keeper, especially when the colleges are recruiting possible starters only every 2nd or 3rd year. However, t are plenty of GKs recruited as practice players, but usually it’s quite clear that that’s where they’ll remain. Some of those slots may go to second keepers. If that works for your DD that is an option.

Starting is not the same as the number 1 keeper. The second half keeper in a tournament is the one doing PKs

Splitting time is for an average to below average keeper. A good keeper should control the field and needs to be on the field. splitting time adds to confusion as to who the leader is. For those who say its normal to split time dont honestly realize that means you dont have a great keeper your blinded by personal interest.

Sorry - but this is ignorant. The best keepers in northern VA - the ones that are getting invites to YNT tryouts - are splitting time.

Whether that is indeed better for the GK and/or the team is a separate question. My guess is that it is better for the GK not to split time, but better for the team to have two GKs who split time. But to suggest that, if you have two keepers who split time it's because you don't have a great keeper - that's nonsense.

Do tell, what NOVA GKs are getting YNT call ups?

Coach here
I just want to say the YNT is more who you know that how good you are.
You do have to be good enough once you get there to stay and excel. But most of the "invites" are favors for coaches not necessarily talent based.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:ECNL parent here, U15, and I've never watch a game where the other team doesn't switch keepers at halftime. I like, one game Loudoun had one keeper the whole time, but the most recent game, they had two and switched at half. Never seen a single game keeper.

ECNL parent here too. We have two u14 boys who swap at halftime. Neither is what you would call standouts. I think if we had a good goalie our coach would go with one main and one back up that would only be a back up. One has been with us since u9 and his father is the team manager which my play a part in it.

the back up would find another team. No kid willingly signs up to ride the bench

Good goal keepers are good field players too. There is no reason for a kid to be riding the bench even as a backup goalie.