If all testing goes away, how will students know where to apply?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

To summarize this thread:

1. Colleges are too dumb to pick the right kids without SATs so their students will fail out.
2. Students are too dumb to pick the right college for them without SATs so they will fail out.

How the hell did any of these people get near college, anyway? They all sound incredibly stupid! Please, college board, save them all from their own ineptitude!

This sounds cute, but it’s not helpful. For the last 100 years, American colleges have used some type of examination to gauge student preparation (see https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/281336/). Examinations started when common people wanted to attend. Prior to that, there were economic barriers, like cost, social circles, and ability to read Greek and Latin (definitely not needed for farm workers’ and shop keepers’ children). The point is, you may not like test scores, but at least they’re on target for the issue at hand (academics), not unrelated factors like legacy, large donations, personal references, etc.

It wasn’t intended to be helpful beyond pointing out the ludicrous points it makes fun of. In that respect, apparently, it was very helpful.

As for test scores being “on target for the issue at hand” I hope you realize the opinions of the folks that matter — college officials — vary widely on that topic. I do not claim to be an expert and in fact I think colleges should be allowed to use whatever criteria they want.

But the “we’re doomed! Idiot kids who took my kid’s spot are gonna fail out now!!” Is patently absurd and should stop.

I’m not concerned about your last point. If unqualified kids are accepted this year, they are few and on the margin. The reality is, college AOs are talking two games. On the one hand, they talk about test discrimination. On the other hand, they mostly accept kids with scores. This year, 75% of the students accepted in UPenn’s ED round submitted scores. The other 25% is close to UPenn’s typical non-Asian minority admit rate. Did anything really change this year? Probably not, except Penn had more flexibility to choose the marginal candidates they desired. However, that scenario is very different from a world where NO ONE SUBMITS SCORES. I don’t think most selective schools want to go there. Instead, I think they will continue the test optional language as long as the expected candidates -white, Asian, and wealthy (of any race) - submit scores.

Are you the same poster or a DP?

If the result is not fundamentally different this year, then what are you causing a brouhaha about?

As for your second point, if you don’t think most schools “want to go there” - then what are you worried about?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Universities will end up with their own entrance exams to be able to narrow down the candidates.

And 99% of them will not reinvent the wheel and agree to a common exam which, not surprisingly, will look just like the SAT.

That’s what the Atlantic article referenced above states. Each college had its own exams. However, as students from all over the country started applying to various schools, it became easier to have a standardized, national exam. We’re going in circles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

To summarize this thread:

1. Colleges are too dumb to pick the right kids without SATs so their students will fail out.
2. Students are too dumb to pick the right college for them without SATs so they will fail out.

How the hell did any of these people get near college, anyway? They all sound incredibly stupid! Please, college board, save them all from their own ineptitude!

This sounds cute, but it’s not helpful. For the last 100 years, American colleges have used some type of examination to gauge student preparation (see https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/281336/). Examinations started when common people wanted to attend. Prior to that, there were economic barriers, like cost, social circles, and ability to read Greek and Latin (definitely not needed for farm workers’ and shop keepers’ children). The point is, you may not like test scores, but at least they’re on target for the issue at hand (academics), not unrelated factors like legacy, large donations, personal references, etc.

It wasn’t intended to be helpful beyond pointing out the ludicrous points it makes fun of. In that respect, apparently, it was very helpful.

As for test scores being “on target for the issue at hand” I hope you realize the opinions of the folks that matter — college officials — vary widely on that topic. I do not claim to be an expert and in fact I think colleges should be allowed to use whatever criteria they want.

But the “we’re doomed! Idiot kids who took my kid’s spot are gonna fail out now!!” Is patently absurd and should stop.

I’m not concerned about your last point. If unqualified kids are accepted this year, they are few and on the margin. The reality is, college AOs are talking two games. On the one hand, they talk about test discrimination. On the other hand, they mostly accept kids with scores. This year, 75% of the students accepted in UPenn’s ED round submitted scores. The other 25% is close to UPenn’s typical non-Asian minority admit rate. Did anything really change this year? Probably not, except Penn had more flexibility to choose the marginal candidates they desired. However, that scenario is very different from a world where NO ONE SUBMITS SCORES. I don’t think most selective schools want to go there. Instead, I think they will continue the test optional language as long as the expected candidates -white, Asian, and wealthy (of any race) - submit scores.

Once we start looking outside the top 10 but still within the top 50, a number of schools had somewhere in the neighborhood of half the applicants submit scores. That makes sense considering the prevalent advice last fall was to not submit if your scores are below the college's average.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child wasn't able to take the SAT before applying (she's a senior) to colleges but the high school advisor gave her a list of 10 schools to apply to based on what the counselor knew about the child and the colleges. In addition to not testing, she has not toured any colleges so my child is relying very heavily on the college advisor's knowledge. I suspect that is more important than testing.

So far she's been deferred to two and in at one-- waiting to hear back about all the others. One of the deferrals is University of Michigan-- considered a reach for our child.

If she gets in and finds it a struggle,she will not be alone. Colleges must anticipate a significant number of those they admitted are not a good fit and must nurture or establish relationships with other colleges that they will respectfully and responsibly transfer overwhelmed students to. There could be a lot of movement both ways. Those kids that missed out for some reason on getting into a higher ranked school will be invited to play in the Big League, while those that are struggling will be advised to try some time in the minors with an understanding that if certain classes are taken and grades improve to a certain point, then they will automatically get back into the original school.

For Michigan, perhaps this would be with a community college close by, or perhaps with Michigan State. For an Ivy League school, perhaps it would be with a SLAC in the area.

In sum, high school students will depend upon their college counselor to know where to apply. If that advice turns out to be misplaced, colleges will provide a "warm handover" of the student to another school that will be a better fit.

It's great that this student had high quality college counseling. Most high school students aren't getting that level of advice from their counselors. Maybe at some privates, but not even all of those. Most public high schools don't have the counseling manpower for that, nor the expertise.

I'm not entirely certain that the counseling was "high quality" Hope so!! To be honest, this is the counselor's first year in the job (but with a more advanced supervisor) and this is a DC public charter. So I took a few colleges off the list of ten and added others.

I expect that parents and colleges will pressure high schools to have high quality "post-high school" counselors. I would hope that such counselors would not only track college options but also military and apprenticeship options. Ideally the person would spend 50% of the time researching options outside high school and 50% getting to know the students at the high school.

Another poster had earlier in this chain mentioned that colleges would perhaps spend more time recruiting-- not just for sports but for all types of students.

Another option-- make sample classes available online. I would love for my kid to be able to virtually audit a class at University of Michigan and compare to a class at Michigan State, for example. Not just lectures, but tests and quiz.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child wasn't able to take the SAT before applying (she's a senior) to colleges but the high school advisor gave her a list of 10 schools to apply to based on what the counselor knew about the child and the colleges. In addition to not testing, she has not toured any colleges so my child is relying very heavily on the college advisor's knowledge. I suspect that is more important than testing.

So far she's been deferred to two and in at one-- waiting to hear back about all the others. One of the deferrals is University of Michigan-- considered a reach for our child.

If she gets in and finds it a struggle,she will not be alone. Colleges must anticipate a significant number of those they admitted are not a good fit and must nurture or establish relationships with other colleges that they will respectfully and responsibly transfer overwhelmed students to. There could be a lot of movement both ways. Those kids that missed out for some reason on getting into a higher ranked school will be invited to play in the Big League, while those that are struggling will be advised to try some time in the minors with an understanding that if certain classes are taken and grades improve to a certain point, then they will automatically get back into the original school.

For Michigan, perhaps this would be with a community college close by, or perhaps with Michigan State. For an Ivy League school, perhaps it would be with a SLAC in the area.

In sum, high school students will depend upon their college counselor to know where to apply. If that advice turns out to be misplaced, colleges will provide a "warm handover" of the student to another school that will be a better fit.

It's great that this student had high quality college counseling. Most high school students aren't getting that level of advice from their counselors. Maybe at some privates, but not even all of those. Most public high schools don't have the counseling manpower for that, nor the expertise.

I'm not entirely certain that the counseling was "high quality" Hope so!! To be honest, this is the counselor's first year in the job (but with a more advanced supervisor) and this is a DC public charter. So I took a few colleges off the list of ten and added others.

I expect that parents and colleges will pressure high schools to have high quality "post-high school" counselors. I would hope that such counselors would not only track college options but also military and apprenticeship options. Ideally the person would spend 50% of the time researching options outside high school and 50% getting to know the students at the high school.

Another poster had earlier in this chain mentioned that colleges would perhaps spend more time recruiting-- not just for sports but for all types of students.

Another option-- make sample classes available online. I would love for my kid to be able to virtually audit a class at University of Michigan and compare to a class at Michigan State, for example. Not just lectures, but tests and quiz.

Unfortunately, what would be ideal is not in the range of possible. Many high school counselors are overloaded with primary responsibilities that dwarf the college question. Moreover, it gives a high school counselor far too much influence over where an individual student applies.

[Anonymous]

The “standardized tests” are anything but standardized anyway. Everyone knows that. It is farcical to compare test scores from a kid who has had 20 hours of private test instruction, taken 6 practice exams and then sat the test 3 times, with a kid who took 3 in school 45 minute sessions and sat the test once when it was given for free.

What the pandemic has done is show that colleges do not need standardized tests at all.

[Anonymous]

The tests have not gone away, they are just optional. Your child can still register and take the test in many places.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “standardized tests” are anything but standardized anyway. Everyone knows that. It is farcical to compare test scores from a kid who has had 20 hours of private test instruction, taken 6 practice exams and then sat the test 3 times, with a kid who took 3 in school 45 minute sessions and sat the test once when it was given for free.

What the pandemic has done is show that colleges do not need standardized tests at all.

NP. We shall see. The results are a long way from evident yet, though I suspect that most of those admitted without scores will do just fine. However, that doesn't address the problem raised by the OP, from the high school student's perspective: how to help a kid know where to apply and how to categorize reaches, matches, and safeties.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The “standardized tests” are anything but standardized anyway. Everyone knows that. It is farcical to compare test scores from a kid who has had 20 hours of private test instruction, taken 6 practice exams and then sat the test 3 times, with a kid who took 3 in school 45 minute sessions and sat the test once when it was given for free.

What the pandemic has done is show that colleges do not need standardized tests at all.

Tests are meant to be prepared for. There are plenty of options for free prep. if you cannot afford to take the SATs or ACTS, how in the world could you afford college?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “standardized tests” are anything but standardized anyway. Everyone knows that. It is farcical to compare test scores from a kid who has had 20 hours of private test instruction, taken 6 practice exams and then sat the test 3 times, with a kid who took 3 in school 45 minute sessions and sat the test once when it was given for free.

What the pandemic has done is show that colleges do not need standardized tests at all.

NP. We shall see. The results are a long way from evident yet, though I suspect that most of those admitted without scores will do just fine. However, that doesn't address the problem raised by the OP, from the high school student's perspective: how to help a kid know where to apply and how to categorize reaches, matches, and safeties.

Take the test. Even if you dont submit the scores, you will have the information to use if you fine it helpful. And most (not all) colleges are still accepting scores if a student has them and chooses to submit them. They are optional, not forbidden at most places.

[Anonymous]

I believe I read at some top competitive school, 75 percent of the admits did submit scores so they are obviously still a factor for some students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The “standardized tests” are anything but standardized anyway. Everyone knows that. It is farcical to compare test scores from a kid who has had 20 hours of private test instruction, taken 6 practice exams and then sat the test 3 times, with a kid who took 3 in school 45 minute sessions and sat the test once when it was given for free.

What the pandemic has done is show that colleges do not need standardized tests at all.

Tests are meant to be prepared for. There are plenty of options for free prep. if you cannot afford to take the SATs or ACTS, how in the world could you afford college?

Grab me some lollipops off that tree in your yard, please.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing against APs since my kid took over a dozen, but using APs is far worse for students in small communities whose school don't have the funding or the critical mass to offer lots of APs.
Makes the SAT look much fairer by comparison.

Liar. Impossible.

What's impossible?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child wasn't able to take the SAT before applying (she's a senior) to colleges but the high school advisor gave her a list of 10 schools to apply to based on what the counselor knew about the child and the colleges. In addition to not testing, she has not toured any colleges so my child is relying very heavily on the college advisor's knowledge. I suspect that is more important than testing.

So far she's been deferred to two and in at one-- waiting to hear back about all the others. One of the deferrals is University of Michigan-- considered a reach for our child.

If she gets in and finds it a struggle,she will not be alone. Colleges must anticipate a significant number of those they admitted are not a good fit and must nurture or establish relationships with other colleges that they will respectfully and responsibly transfer overwhelmed students to. There could be a lot of movement both ways. Those kids that missed out for some reason on getting into a higher ranked school will be invited to play in the Big League, while those that are struggling will be advised to try some time in the minors with an understanding that if certain classes are taken and grades improve to a certain point, then they will automatically get back into the original school.

For Michigan, perhaps this would be with a community college close by, or perhaps with Michigan State. For an Ivy League school, perhaps it would be with a SLAC in the area.

In sum, high school students will depend upon their college counselor to know where to apply. If that advice turns out to be misplaced, colleges will provide a "warm handover" of the student to another school that will be a better fit.

It's great that this student had high quality college counseling. Most high school students aren't getting that level of advice from their counselors. Maybe at some privates, but not even all of those. Most public high schools don't have the counseling manpower for that, nor the expertise.

I'm not entirely certain that the counseling was "high quality" Hope so!! To be honest, this is the counselor's first year in the job (but with a more advanced supervisor) and this is a DC public charter. So I took a few colleges off the list of ten and added others.

I expect that parents and colleges will pressure high schools to have high quality "post-high school" counselors. I would hope that such counselors would not only track college options but also military and apprenticeship options. Ideally the person would spend 50% of the time researching options outside high school and 50% getting to know the students at the high school.

Another poster had earlier in this chain mentioned that colleges would perhaps spend more time recruiting-- not just for sports but for all types of students.

Another option-- make sample classes available online. I would love for my kid to be able to virtually audit a class at University of Michigan and compare to a class at Michigan State, for example. Not just lectures, but tests and quiz.

There aren't "quizzes" in college. Professors assume the students want to be there and will be engaged in the assignments to fully understand the lectures and discussion sections.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Universities will end up with their own entrance exams to be able to narrow down the candidates.

And 99% of them will not reinvent the wheel and agree to a common exam which, not surprisingly, will look just like the SAT.

That’s what the Atlantic article referenced above states. Each college had its own exams. However, as students from all over the country started applying to various schools, it became easier to have a standardized, national exam. We’re going in circles.

Everyone talks about the University of California going test (SAT/ACT) blind, but it turns out that they are still accepting AP and SAT II scores. Also, they are developing their own test that should go live in 2025. Testing isn’t going away.