AAP - why not have it for all of FCPS?

[Anonymous]

"In Montgomery County an elementary school principal was asked, "what would change if a child gets a "gifted" designation?" Her answer was, "If I have been doing my job right, nothing." My teachers would have already identified students and would already have been enriching curriculum as needed for them. I would be overseeing that. "

That doesn't happen in practice enough to amount to anything during ES. Both in MCPS and in FCPS. That is why AAP is needed - to force the differentiation for kids at the high end that otherwise would barely take place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Don't some FCPS schools have AAP in Gen Ed?

AAP is just an academic program. Is the selection process for kids needed? does it add any value?

Why not have AAP across all of FCPS and challenge truly exceptional kids with differentiation by their own school teachers (based on their specific needs)?

There are 4 levels of AAP. Level 2 can start before third grade. Level 3 or 4 starts in third grade. Not all schools have Level 4 AAP.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

Unfortunately FCPS has too many ES with different resources and AAP Levels. Better class ratios would be a first step to help increase level of learning.

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

Why do you see such diverse knowledge of basic math acquired between K-2? unlikely to be simply based on kids’ aptitudes? and wouldn’t it better to address any inconsistency in syllabus or knowledge gaps early on?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

Unfortunately FCPS has too many ES with different resources and AAP Levels. Better class ratios can be the first step to increase the level of learning in ES and MS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In our school, they use some of it for everyone but generally the AAP material ends up being used for the top groups in the gen ed class. For instance, the highest LA groups in each 4th grade class are doing Caesar’s English, in 6th grade GE only some of the groups are doing Jacob’s Ladder at all or doing one every week as opposed to taking a lot longer, GE kids can test into advanced math, etc. I think it strikes a good balance between AAP For Everyone and just assuming that the gen ed kids can’t handle it.

Seems to be a step forward - agree with you that kids should not be underestimated. Is AAP so exceptional? Don’t truly exceptional kids on either side of the spectrum still need differentiated teaching?

In terms of limited resources: how much time and resources are needed for AAP assessments each year? would that not be better allocated to teaching kids well and with better teacher:student class ratios?

Thanks. OP

any FCPS teachers' perspectives on this?

Their solution to this at the middle school level was to make honors open enrollment. It has been handled differently by each school (some allow anyone to move classes at any point in the year, some let you sign up for anything but then you're stuck there, some try to encourage more honors, some try to discourage it), so it's hard to make blanket statements. In my experience though, all kids want to say they are in honors, and all parents want their kid in honors to be around the kids they perceive to be more motivated/dedicated. That means I have kids who failed their 6th grade math SOL sitting in math 7 honors. Kids who failed their math 7 SOL sitting in algebra. They struggle all year because I cannot teach 2-3 years of math to them in a group setting in one year, and many of them end up repeating algebra in high school because they lack foundational understanding of the math concepts.

My peers who have been teaching longer than I have will tell you that AAP is what honors used to be and honors has been slowed to what gen ed used to be due to the open enrollment and pressure to not allow anyone to fail.

So would it be helpful to have AAP for all FCPS kids so that it does not lead to the problems you noted with the open enrollment option for all classes in middle school?

This inconsistency must make it difficult for middle school teachers. (What happens after middle school - open AP/honors enrollment again?)

No, I do not think AAP for all would solve this--I think it would just push the problem to an earlier level. I am a math teacher so that's my focus (it may very well be an English teacher had a completely different viewpoint). In 3rd grade when they are splitting up the kids for AAP, some kids are still learning to skip count, some are working on multiplication, and others are capable of doing prealgebra. The idea that everyone can access the advanced math curriculum is unrealistic, and does a disservice to kids who need foundational math supports. Exposing kids to advanced math before they are ready provides no long term benefits, and leads to memorizing procedures rather than deeper understanding that they can build on in middle school and high school.

In high school there is no more AAP. You can sign up for whatever classes you want regardless of level--honors/gen ed/AP/IB.

Unfortunately FCPS has too many ES with different resources and AAP Levels. Better class ratios can be the first step to increase the level of learning in ES and MS.

+ 1

[Anonymous]

AAP leaves out kids. FCPS AAP open enrollment and make the administrators teach.

https://wjla.com/news/local/school-systems-appeals-process-leaves-some-minorities-out

[Anonymous]

Read the forum threads on rejections with high scores, acceptance with low scores, and no transparency. Central selection takes teachers out of education decisions and it is complete waste of time and waste of tax payer funded education budget for FCPS. AAP should be open to all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read the forum threads on rejections with high scores, acceptance with low scores, and no transparency. Central selection takes teachers out of education decisions and it is complete waste of time and waste of tax payer funded education budget for FCPS. AAP should be open to all.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Read the forum threads on rejections with high scores, acceptance with low scores, and no transparency. Central selection takes teachers out of education decisions and it is complete waste of time and waste of tax payer funded education budget for FCPS. AAP should be open to all.

Teachers help write the GBRSs that are used in admission. So they are not excluded from the decision.

[Anonymous]

All students need to be challenged but students are at all sorts of ability levels

The reason why there shouldn't be AAP for all is the same reason there shouldn't be AP for all. Most kids aren't ready for the material and they drag down the ones who are if they are in the classroom period.

IQ sorry not sorry

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All students need to be challenged but students are at all sorts of ability levels

The reason why there shouldn't be AAP for all is the same reason there shouldn't be AP for all. Most kids aren't ready for the material and they drag down the ones who are if they are in the classroom period.

IQ sorry not sorry

IQ sorry not sorry = ? If you are saying that ability level is based on IQ, then set cut offs on appropriate scores and require clearly stated supporting materials if score is below cut off. Currently, there is no transparency for local school and parents.

In any case, AAP syllabus is not so advanced that kids must need a high IQ - make it open enrollment so kids can try it out.

The current process is a waste of time of school teachers. The top two public elementary schools in VA have gifted programs run locally by schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All students need to be challenged but students are at all sorts of ability levels

The reason why there shouldn't be AAP for all is the same reason there shouldn't be AP for all. Most kids aren't ready for the material and they drag down the ones who are if they are in the classroom period.

IQ sorry not sorry

There would be huge blowback, but the way to remedy this is to have advanced math and advanced language arts at all schools starting in third grade. If there are four classes per grade, separate the classes by ability (based on SOL or iReady scores) and group them for those subjects accordingly. If a kid is consistently passing advanced and/or scoring in the top percentile, there's no way they're learning anything in a math or reading class with students who are two grade levels behind. This is why parents cram their borderline kids into AAP centers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read the forum threads on rejections with high scores, acceptance with low scores, and no transparency. Central selection takes teachers out of education decisions and it is complete waste of time and waste of tax payer funded education budget for FCPS. AAP should be open to all.

+1

+ 1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:All students need to be challenged but students are at all sorts of ability levels

The reason why there shouldn't be AAP for all is the same reason there shouldn't be AP for all. Most kids aren't ready for the material and they drag down the ones who are if they are in the classroom period.

IQ sorry not sorry

But AP is available for all. Some people have suggested open enrollment for AAP, which would make it available to all who want the challenge.

I think FCPS is greatly overcomplicating this. Since AAP is only mildly accelerated and no longer a gifted program, the most sensible thing would be to admit all of the kids who are actually advanced in math and language arts, as measured by the end of year MRA tests or DRA (or whatever other achievement test they want to use). It's beyond dumb that my kid's AAP classroom has an on-grade level reading group, yet the gen ed kids next door who are above grade level can't access the AAP language arts materials. It's also dumb that some kids in my kid's AAP class had relatively low CogAT Q scores, are not good in math, and are struggling with advanced math, yet there are kids in the gen ed classroom next door who are really bright in math, belong in advanced math, but can't access it until 5th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:All students need to be challenged but students are at all sorts of ability levels

The reason why there shouldn't be AAP for all is the same reason there shouldn't be AP for all. Most kids aren't ready for the material and they drag down the ones who are if they are in the classroom period.

IQ sorry not sorry

But AP is available for all. Some people have suggested open enrollment for AAP, which would make it available to all who want the challenge.

I think FCPS is greatly overcomplicating this. Since AAP is only mildly accelerated and no longer a gifted program, the most sensible thing would be to admit all of the kids who are actually advanced in math and language arts, as measured by the end of year MRA tests or DRA (or whatever other achievement test they want to use). It's beyond dumb that my kid's AAP classroom has an on-grade level reading group, yet the gen ed kids next door who are above grade level can't access the AAP language arts materials. It's also dumb that some kids in my kid's AAP class had relatively low CogAT Q scores, are not good in math, and are struggling with advanced math, yet there are kids in the gen ed classroom next door who are really bright in math, belong in advanced math, but can't access it until 5th grade.

+1