Cogat culturally biased?

[Anonymous]

Slightly off-topic, but who decides your child should get an IQ test? Is it something a parent just decides to do? And when? Or is it something mandated by teachers who believe a child might have a high IQ?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Slightly off-topic, but who decides your child should get an IQ test? Is it something a parent just decides to do? And when? Or is it something mandated by teachers who believe a child might have a high IQ?

In Fairfax it is usually done for testing for learning disabilities or by the parent if they want their kid in AAP and they feel they need an extra test in addition to nnat and Cogat to show that

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Slightly off-topic, but who decides your child should get an IQ test? Is it something a parent just decides to do? And when? Or is it something mandated by teachers who believe a child might have a high IQ?

It's completely on the parents to pursue IQ testing. The teachers are not going to stop you in the hallway, suggest that your kid is gifted, and then urge you to get an IQ test to know for sure. It just flat out won't happen. I'm not even sure that they would specifically recommend an IQ test for kids they think might have learning disabilities. They instead would urge an evaluation with a psychologist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Slightly off-topic, but who decides your child should get an IQ test? Is it something a parent just decides to do? And when? Or is it something mandated by teachers who believe a child might have a high IQ?

It's completely on the parents to pursue IQ testing. The teachers are not going to stop you in the hallway, suggest that your kid is gifted, and then urge you to get an IQ test to know for sure. It just flat out won't happen. I'm not even sure that they would specifically recommend an IQ test for kids they think might have learning disabilities. They instead would urge an evaluation with a psychologist.

And that evaluation by the psychologist would include an IQ test...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?

Asians prep. They spend time explaining to their kids what a shoemaker is or a typewriter. White people and non-Asian/non-whites do not.

Why not? If you don't care to educate your child.. well, your child will not be educated.

Because the test is designed for no prepping, and I follow the rules. And DH and I were both in GT programs as kids and now our kids are in AAP, without prepping.

"educating your child" is taking them to the museum or a symphony, reading them stories. "Prepping your child" is making them do flashcards and memorize what a shoemaker is. I prefer to educate my child.

The ethnic composition of TJ says which one is really educating your child. Plus, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Most people who prep their kids for the CogAT also expose them to the arts. You choose to do one, they do both with better results.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.

If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.

This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.

At the end of the day, water finds its own level. A "smart" kid will eventually get his due, regardless of whether or not he did AAP. "Smart" in my book includes one of natural intelligence, ability to focus and work hard, high level of ambition, perseverance, etc. You can compensate for lack of natural intelligence through other criteria - hard work, perseverance, etc.

Almost all Asians expect their kids to be smart. They tell the kids as much and reinforce that through prep classes or other supplementation. They ALSO do concerts, museums, etc. (it's not the non-preppers that do it). I read a study recently that subjects behave in the way you expect them to. In the article, scientists labeled a cage containing a mouse as "smart" and did not label the others. Apparently the "smart" mouse behaved like it was actually smarter than the other mice (though its baseline measures were pretty much the same as the others). The conclusion was that the behavior of the testers (grad students in this case) encouraged the mice to put out his best. Think about this.. If a mouse can behave smarter than other mice because that's what someone expects of it, why not human children? Once this becomes part of their behavior, they compensate for lack of natural intelligence through hard work as needed.

If this was not the case, how do so many Asians get into TJ AND manage to complete 4 years of High School in one of the most brutal programs in the country? Of course, not all kids are smart and a fair number will drop off along the way, 7th grade when the enter MS, 9th grade when they enter HS, etc.

So, IMHO, prepping actually gives the kids an advantage. If you are borderline smart, it's a huge advantage. If you are below that line, it at least gives you a good work ethic.

Hard work will only get a person so far without a healthy dose of natural intelligence. Michael Phelps worked hard at swimming, but without his natural talent, he would not have won those Olympic medals. Some people can work all day long, but they cannot achieve what someone who works the same hours but also has talent can achieve.

Hard work will compensate to a point, but at some point the amount of hard work it takes to continue in a "gifted" level program will completely stress a child to the point where they will have little time for non-academic activities. TJ is brutal for a kid who has to work till the wee hours and work with outside tutors and/or classes to keep up, but not for the kids for whom the program is designed. Lots of kids at TJ manage to do sports and other non-academic activities for hours after school each day and still do well in their classes. Those kids know how to work hard but they are smart enough that they also have time to give to other activities.

What if a kid needs to give so much time to keeping up with an AAP class that is over his head that he never has time to work on a completely different skill for which he actually has a talent? That is a loss to that child and time that he can never get back. Kids who don't truly need the AAP classroom will get a better education in the regular classroom and will be more likely to have the time to develop a variety of skills and talents.

Agreed that each kid is different and may or may not belong in AAP vs in the normal classes. However your analogies aren't very productive; we shouldn't compare our kids with Michael Phelps or anyone who is the best in the world, as you have to assume that's simply not going to happen. Also, you can't just compare AAP and TJ, they are two totally different things (AAP is an accelerated program and we know many kids fit in and can thrive in the program, while TJ is very challenging on a different level and we know only a fraction of kids can do well AND have a healthy experience there).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?

And Asians never complain about anything - go figure!

Asians complain about the "Asian penalty" in college admissions. The problem is that the schools keep insisting that the only prep necessary is a good night's sleep and breakfast. Unfortunately, nonAsians listen to that. The schools have stigmatized prepping for the CogAT and the NNAT. Most Asians come from a culture where prepping and prepping some more is the norm. They ignore the schools and prep, as should everyone else.

It's common sense to prep, I don't know if you need to be Asian to realize this. I mean, I'm not Asian and it never occurred to me NOT to prep. I will also say that schools don't really tell you much on the subject so I don't think it's fair to describe it as stigmatization. They simply don't give the subject much attention at all. I never heard anyone say explicitly "please don't prep".

[Anonymous]

I remember there being a question about an engineer when I was a kid taking one of these tests. I was 5. I thought "engineer" mean a "train engineer." And my dad IS an electrical engineer.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?

And Asians never complain about anything - go figure!

Asians complain about the "Asian penalty" in college admissions. The problem is that the schools keep insisting that the only prep necessary is a good night's sleep and breakfast. Unfortunately, nonAsians listen to that. The schools have stigmatized prepping for the CogAT and the NNAT. Most Asians come from a culture where prepping and prepping some more is the norm. They ignore the schools and prep, as should everyone else.

It's common sense to prep, I don't know if you need to be Asian to realize this. I mean, I'm not Asian and it never occurred to me NOT to prep. I will also say that schools don't really tell you much on the subject so I don't think it's fair to describe it as stigmatization. They simply don't give the subject much attention at all. I never heard anyone say explicitly "please don't prep".

It's not. I appreciate that our school, and it seems many schools, have successfully downplayed the NNAT and it's date, to discourage prepping. I wish they could do the same for the Cogat but I suppose parents are too invested in their child's scores to allow it.

[Anonymous]

Depends on the area. In this area is too common to prep (and overprep to the extreme). In most of the rest of the country yes, it's uncommon to prep.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Depends on the area. In this area is too common to prep (and overprep to the extreme). In most of the rest of the country yes, it's uncommon to prep.

I would say New York City is the one that do the most prep

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have a prep workbook and my kid has a hard time figuring out what the pictures are supposed to be.

If you have him go to a class, they will tell him what the pictures are and what the correct answers are. I hear the classes guarantee a gifted score.

This is an ever-ending controversial topic. Should you prep or not? Well, prep does work temporarily for the test and have some long term benefit by learning the patterns. If you believe you child is smart and won't struggle in AAP, then prep may be worth it. In my school, a few kids quit AAP in 5th grade. I figured that they prepped hard to get in. In the end, if you don't put in hard work or not intelligent enough to keep up with the AAP work, then you would end up quitting or not like school.

At the end of the day, water finds its own level. A "smart" kid will eventually get his due, regardless of whether or not he did AAP. "Smart" in my book includes one of natural intelligence, ability to focus and work hard, high level of ambition, perseverance, etc. You can compensate for lack of natural intelligence through other criteria - hard work, perseverance, etc.

Almost all Asians expect their kids to be smart. They tell the kids as much and reinforce that through prep classes or other supplementation. They ALSO do concerts, museums, etc. (it's not the non-preppers that do it). I read a study recently that subjects behave in the way you expect them to. In the article, scientists labeled a cage containing a mouse as "smart" and did not label the others. Apparently the "smart" mouse behaved like it was actually smarter than the other mice (though its baseline measures were pretty much the same as the others). The conclusion was that the behavior of the testers (grad students in this case) encouraged the mice to put out his best. Think about this.. If a mouse can behave smarter than other mice because that's what someone expects of it, why not human children? Once this becomes part of their behavior, they compensate for lack of natural intelligence through hard work as needed.

If this was not the case, how do so many Asians get into TJ AND manage to complete 4 years of High School in one of the most brutal programs in the country? Of course, not all kids are smart and a fair number will drop off along the way, 7th grade when the enter MS, 9th grade when they enter HS, etc.

So, IMHO, prepping actually gives the kids an advantage. If you are borderline smart, it's a huge advantage. If you are below that line, it at least gives you a good work ethic.

Hard work will only get a person so far without a healthy dose of natural intelligence. Michael Phelps worked hard at swimming, but without his natural talent, he would not have won those Olympic medals. Some people can work all day long, but they cannot achieve what someone who works the same hours but also has talent can achieve.

Hard work will compensate to a point, but at some point the amount of hard work it takes to continue in a "gifted" level program will completely stress a child to the point where they will have little time for non-academic activities. TJ is brutal for a kid who has to work till the wee hours and work with outside tutors and/or classes to keep up, but not for the kids for whom the program is designed. Lots of kids at TJ manage to do sports and other non-academic activities for hours after school each day and still do well in their classes. Those kids know how to work hard but they are smart enough that they also have time to give to other activities.

What if a kid needs to give so much time to keeping up with an AAP class that is over his head that he never has time to work on a completely different skill for which he actually has a talent? That is a loss to that child and time that he can never get back. Kids who don't truly need the AAP classroom will get a better education in the regular classroom and will be more likely to have the time to develop a variety of skills and talents.

read the part where I said " Of course, not all kids are smart and a fair number will drop off along the way, 7th grade when the enter MS, 9th grade when they enter HS, etc. ". At some point, the kid will rebel and push back. An easy way is to fail the class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?

And Asians never complain about anything - go figure!

Asians complain about the "Asian penalty" in college admissions. The problem is that the schools keep insisting that the only prep necessary is a good night's sleep and breakfast. Unfortunately, nonAsians listen to that. The schools have stigmatized prepping for the CogAT and the NNAT. Most Asians come from a culture where prepping and prepping some more is the norm. They ignore the schools and prep, as should everyone else.

"Good night's rest and breakfast" is traditional advice for ALL tests. When did that become code for "Fairfax county says no prepping"? Who are they afraid of offending? If they really man "don't prep", I'm sure they will say just that. You guys are killing me..

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm confused.. People are complaining that these tests are "culturally biased" on the one hand and yet, Asians are doing extremely well on these tests. Are the Asians creating these tests? Do they have pictures of Samosas and Elephants?

And Asians never complain about anything - go figure!

Asians complain about the "Asian penalty" in college admissions. The problem is that the schools keep insisting that the only prep necessary is a good night's sleep and breakfast. Unfortunately, nonAsians listen to that. The schools have stigmatized prepping for the CogAT and the NNAT. Most Asians come from a culture where prepping and prepping some more is the norm. They ignore the schools and prep, as should everyone else.

"Good night's rest and breakfast" is traditional advice for ALL tests. When did that become code for "Fairfax county says no prepping"? Who are they afraid of offending? If they really man "don't prep", I'm sure they will say just that. You guys are killing me..

No, the teacher tells my DS what to study for his social studies test, math test, etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I was surprised to see the sample questions relating to tennis, camping, and stringed instruments. I was taken aback.

If your child does not know those things, gen Ed for you