ADA Compliance with Fire Drills

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

As a former preschool teacher, I can tell you that an actual fire with me in the building would be one of my worst nightmares, first floor or second, carrying or not.

But, I can't see how having a kid on one hip would change that. I'd still be leading a line or following the end of the line of little people either way.

8:1 is not a good ratio. Not because of emergencies, but because day to day it's not enough staffing to both meet kids needs and interact and teach. I would be concerned about that.

So what do you do when one of the kids in your line trips and falls and needs your help to get up? Do you put down OP'd kid to help that one, then pick her up again and slow up the whole group? What if the child is sufficiently injured that they can't/won't walk the rest of the way, can you still effectively monitor six walking children while carrying two children? Do you leave the kid that fell behind? Let the other kids go ahead and hope they get out on their own? Realistically, if they know a staff member will have to carry a particular child in an emergency because that child cannot get him/herself out of the building on their own two feet, you need to take that person out of the equation for everyone else.

In most circumstances, we're talking about a teacher with 2 hands. Any mother with an infant and a toddler knows that you can help one child up while carrying another.

This class will be practicing going up and down stairs as a group multiple times each day. The thing that will get them out safely in a fire is having it go exactly the same way when there's an emergency. So, if the kids are used to holding the rail on the right with a teacher at the front, and a teacher at the back, that's what they'll do. And yes, in an emergency, someone can carry two and watch or lead the line.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

As a former preschool teacher, I can tell you that an actual fire with me in the building would be one of my worst nightmares, first floor or second, carrying or not.

But, I can't see how having a kid on one hip would change that. I'd still be leading a line or following the end of the line of little people either way.

8:1 is not a good ratio. Not because of emergencies, but because day to day it's not enough staffing to both meet kids needs and interact and teach. I would be concerned about that.

So what do you do when one of the kids in your line trips and falls and needs your help to get up? Do you put down OP'd kid to help that one, then pick her up again and slow up the whole group? What if the child is sufficiently injured that they can't/won't walk the rest of the way, can you still effectively monitor six walking children while carrying two children? Do you leave the kid that fell behind? Let the other kids go ahead and hope they get out on their own? Realistically, if they know a staff member will have to carry a particular child in an emergency because that child cannot get him/herself out of the building on their own two feet, you need to take that person out of the equation for everyone else.

In most circumstances, we're talking about a teacher with 2 hands. Any mother with an infant and a toddler knows that you can help one child up while carrying another.

This class will be practicing going up and down stairs as a group multiple times each day. The thing that will get them out safely in a fire is having it go exactly the same way when there's an emergency. So, if the kids are used to holding the rail on the right with a teacher at the front, and a teacher at the back, that's what they'll do. And yes, in an emergency, someone can carry two and watch or lead the line.

By OP's account, this school has done wonderful things to accommodate her daughter's needs otherwise. You really think they're setting down a line here because they feel like being petty and difficult? Or maybe, just maybe, the school that's done so much to help her before has legitimate concerns about whether they'd be able to effectively evacuate everyone in an emergency if OP's child is in one of the upstairs rooms.

Also, you have no idea what actually happens in a real emergency. Grown-ass men and women panic and freeze rather than walking to the exit, they go the wrong way because they want to check that their friend is getting out or think a different route will be faster, they run and push each other down even though there's plenty of time for everyone to get out, etc. Children can not be counted on to do better, and any daycare that does is deeply foolish.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

OP here, like I have said, there are no daycares with immediate openings in our area or waitlists that aren't huge. There is one that is new I can tour, I am so happy with this school accommodating her in every other way. They have never complained about her PT coming in weekly and are so eager to help her get around otherwise. I would really hate to leave them, which is why I made this post, I really want to make this work.

Since you want to stay there, this seems like a difficult problem. Do you have an OT? They can teach your kid to butt scoot down the stairs. Or they might have some other method.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

OP here, like I have said, there are no daycares with immediate openings in our area or waitlists that aren't huge. There is one that is new I can tour, I am so happy with this school accommodating her in every other way. They have never complained about her PT coming in weekly and are so eager to help her get around otherwise. I would really hate to leave them, which is why I made this post, I really want to make this work.

Since you want to stay there, this seems like a difficult problem. Do you have an OT? They can teach your kid to butt scoot down the stairs. Or they might have some other method.

OP here. I spoke to the director again on my way out. She said they go downstairs in groups, she would be in a group of 8 with the director and a teacher helping them down. I said I can't imagine you wouldn't end up just picking her up b/c her butt scoot would be slow and she agreed. So it sounds like she merely needs to be able to get down the stairs, but it's a lot of stairs. We both agreed we really really want to make it work. PT comes tomorrow and the three of us will discuss it. She has hypotonia in her legs so I worry she will need her legs to help and they won't be able to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

OP here, like I have said, there are no daycares with immediate openings in our area or waitlists that aren't huge. There is one that is new I can tour, I am so happy with this school accommodating her in every other way. They have never complained about her PT coming in weekly and are so eager to help her get around otherwise. I would really hate to leave them, which is why I made this post, I really want to make this work.

Since you want to stay there, this seems like a difficult problem. Do you have an OT? They can teach your kid to butt scoot down the stairs. Or they might have some other method.

OP here. I spoke to the director again on my way out. She said they go downstairs in groups, she would be in a group of 8 with the director and a teacher helping them down. I said I can't imagine you wouldn't end up just picking her up b/c her butt scoot would be slow and she agreed. So it sounds like she merely needs to be able to get down the stairs, but it's a lot of stairs. We both agreed we really really want to make it work. PT comes tomorrow and the three of us will discuss it. She has hypotonia in her legs so I worry she will need her legs to help and they won't be able to.

Have you considered doing more intensive PT? I would do it 2-3 times a week given her age and needs. In order to do stairs, she needs to be stable walking. I'd be far more concerned about the walking than the fire issue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

OP here, like I have said, there are no daycares with immediate openings in our area or waitlists that aren't huge. There is one that is new I can tour, I am so happy with this school accommodating her in every other way. They have never complained about her PT coming in weekly and are so eager to help her get around otherwise. I would really hate to leave them, which is why I made this post, I really want to make this work.

Since you want to stay there, this seems like a difficult problem. Do you have an OT? They can teach your kid to butt scoot down the stairs. Or they might have some other method.

OP here. I spoke to the director again on my way out. She said they go downstairs in groups, she would be in a group of 8 with the director and a teacher helping them down. I said I can't imagine you wouldn't end up just picking her up b/c her butt scoot would be slow and she agreed. So it sounds like she merely needs to be able to get down the stairs, but it's a lot of stairs. We both agreed we really really want to make it work. PT comes tomorrow and the three of us will discuss it. She has hypotonia in her legs so I worry she will need her legs to help and they won't be able to.

Have you considered doing more intensive PT? I would do it 2-3 times a week given her age and needs. In order to do stairs, she needs to be stable walking. I'd be far more concerned about the walking than the fire issue.

She is in early intervention. Her therapist goes for maternity leave in a few weeks. Her drs said don’t do more PT and I agree it won’t make a difference. Of course I’m worried she’s not walking but I don’t see how it affects her moving up a classroom size.

[Anonymous]

The DC agreed they do not want to hold her back b/c of this. They are going to practice the stairs with her but in an a true emergency they will change some of the procedure to have extra help upstairs and she will likely be carried down. They agreed that in every other way she is ready to be transitioned upstairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DC agreed they do not want to hold her back b/c of this. They are going to practice the stairs with her but in an a true emergency they will change some of the procedure to have extra help upstairs and she will likely be carried down. They agreed that in every other way she is ready to be transitioned upstairs.

Glad you could work it out with them

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The DC agreed they do not want to hold her back b/c of this. They are going to practice the stairs with her but in an a true emergency they will change some of the procedure to have extra help upstairs and she will likely be carried down. They agreed that in every other way she is ready to be transitioned upstairs.

The whole purpose of having standard procedures is that they work all the time. What happens when the "True Emergency" happens when the swing person is in another part of the building b/c someone is out that day? Do you really want to put your child and the rest of the class at risk?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The DC agreed they do not want to hold her back b/c of this. They are going to practice the stairs with her but in an a true emergency they will change some of the procedure to have extra help upstairs and she will likely be carried down. They agreed that in every other way she is ready to be transitioned upstairs.

The whole purpose of having standard procedures is that they work all the time. What happens when the "True Emergency" happens when the swing person is in another part of the building b/c someone is out that day? Do you really want to put your child and the rest of the class at risk?

I hate to say this, but +1. Emergency plans have to be practiced as they will be done so that everyone (including kids) is working from muscle memory. That said, having been in my daughter's federal daycare on 9-11 when they were evacuating the kids, I would be totally comfortable with your DC in the upstairs class and one named teacher tasked to hold her hand down the stairs or pick up if necessary.

BTW, there really are other options a daycare could be exploring for evacuation --such as a supplementary sling or Baby Bjorn that a teacher could use, evacuation mattress or sling. If your daycare is in a bigger building, ask to talk to a building maintenance or security manager. They also have to make these plans for other disabled adults in the building.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The DC agreed they do not want to hold her back b/c of this. They are going to practice the stairs with her but in an a true emergency they will change some of the procedure to have extra help upstairs and she will likely be carried down. They agreed that in every other way she is ready to be transitioned upstairs.

The whole purpose of having standard procedures is that they work all the time. What happens when the "True Emergency" happens when the swing person is in another part of the building b/c someone is out that day? Do you really want to put your child and the rest of the class at risk?

I hate to say this, but +1. Emergency plans have to be practiced as they will be done so that everyone (including kids) is working from muscle memory. That said, having been in my daughter's federal daycare on 9-11 when they were evacuating the kids, I would be totally comfortable with your DC in the upstairs class and one named teacher tasked to hold her hand down the stairs or pick up if necessary.

BTW, there really are other options a daycare could be exploring for evacuation --such as a supplementary sling or Baby Bjorn that a teacher could use, evacuation mattress or sling. If your daycare is in a bigger building, ask to talk to a building maintenance or security manager. They also have to make these plans for other disabled adults in the building.

They have a lot more extra staff than I assumed. They were having one extra staff member help 75+ kids upstairs. That is not OK.

[Anonymous]

What about a backpack to put your kid in? That would keep the teacher’s hands free.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What about a backpack to put your kid in? That would keep the teacher’s hands free.

I don't know if she would feel comfortable taking a 25-30 pound child down a flight of stairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about a backpack to put your kid in? That would keep the teacher’s hands free.

I don't know if she would feel comfortable taking a 25-30 pound child down a flight of stairs.

The teachers in her new and old room should be participating in the discussions about how to accomodate her. The teachers in her current room are best positioned to describe or walking/stair skill level. The teachers in the new room have to choose accomodations that they feel confident they can carry out and they have to practice them. Maybe they have health issues of their own, like back difficulty, that prevent them from carrying. Even personal preference should be taken into account.

Personally, as a teacher, my preference would be a ring-wrap type baby carrier that I could use to scoop OP’s child up quickly and secure her to my hip, leaving me hands free for the stairs. Since I would be carrying OP’s DD, the other teacher would have to take the Go-Bag from our room - which presumably contains contact info cards for all kids, any necessary kids meds, dry snacks, some water, a small first aid kit, etc.

OP, it’s not your job to decide what the accommodation is. It’s your job to point out the need to accommodate and to come to the table with a variety of suggestions that might work. this thread provides a lot of ideas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What about a backpack to put your kid in? That would keep the teacher’s hands free.

I don't know if she would feel comfortable taking a 25-30 pound child down a flight of stairs.

The teachers in her new and old room should be participating in the discussions about how to accomodate her. The teachers in her current room are best positioned to describe or walking/stair skill level. The teachers in the new room have to choose accomodations that they feel confident they can carry out and they have to practice them. Maybe they have health issues of their own, like back difficulty, that prevent them from carrying. Even personal preference should be taken into account.

Personally, as a teacher, my preference would be a ring-wrap type baby carrier that I could use to scoop OP’s child up quickly and secure her to my hip, leaving me hands free for the stairs. Since I would be carrying OP’s DD, the other teacher would have to take the Go-Bag from our room - which presumably contains contact info cards for all kids, any necessary kids meds, dry snacks, some water, a small first aid kit, etc.

OP, it’s not your job to decide what the accommodation is. It’s your job to point out the need to accommodate and to come to the table with a variety of suggestions that might work. this thread provides a lot of ideas.

Op here, thank you so much for taking the time to write this response, and to everyone else who has responded. This is a great idea, I will ask the teachers in her old room to talk about her with her new teachers so they know what to expect and look for. Today we practiced the stairs and she was able to go up 7 holding one hand, but down she needs to learn to bend her legs. Her dad and I will practice this at home.