ADA Compliance with Fire Drills

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

But keeping a 2 year old in an infant room is not appropriate care. It's a programmatic difference, not just a location difference.

OP, I would push back. Like another poster said, the reasonable accommodation can be putting a 2 year old classroom on the 1st floor or designating someone to carry her out. For the poster who thought the concern might be that all the teachers could get injured and so no one would be able to carry her out -- if that happened, it would be a problem for all the 2 year olds, since even 2 year olds without disabilities cannot safely evacuate a building by themselves.

One person could manage to get a group of fully mobile 2 year olds down at flight of stairs, but it might involve some handholding or other physical work, especially if they’re scared. If that one teacher is already carrying one child because she cannot walk down the stairs, what does she do when there’s a logjam or kids who suddenly feel the need for a handhold to keep going? Does she leave a few kids behind and just carry OP’s child out, hoping the others will eventually start walking? Abandon OP’s child because that allows her to save the greatest number of children? These are the kinds of scenarios a daycare needs to consider. I agree that keeping her in the infant room is not appropriate, but it’s also helpful to keep in mind all of the relevant considerations as OP works toward an appropriate resolution.

+1. I don't think the daycare's position is unreasonable. If there are only a limited number of staff guaranteed to be in that 2 year old room at one time and they do not feel they can get OP's child out and the other child out safely with those ratios they should try to figure out another solution. In the worst case, a staff member might be so occupied by your child that she might lose another child, or the staff member might be busy with several screaming children in in the chaos not be able to carry out your child. I would not push this, for everyone's sake.

One idea is for you to pay for a 1:1 shadow if you feel strongly about her being in that room. You could also wait it out a bit and work on the scooting idea which, again, is a reasonable suggestion. If there's another classroom that's more accessible and they can just switch the two classes, I think that would be reasonable, too, and you could suggest that to the daycare

What's not reasonable is for them to hire an extra person just to be able to help your DD manage the stairs in case of an emergency.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe she would be better off with a nanny and intensive PT until she is walking or a program for kids with similar needs. Yes, day cares should make reasonable accommodations but it is not their job to provide services outside the ordinary. If you want her to have 1-1 care, offer to pay for a full-time aide. The aides probably float and are not dedicated to one child. Your concern is valid but if you do not think they can meet her needs, you'll need to look elsewhere like many of us have had to do.

It IS their job to follow the law

That doesn't include hiring a 1:1 aide. However, if a parent pays for the aide, the daycare would have to try to accommodate that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe she would be better off with a nanny and intensive PT until she is walking or a program for kids with similar needs. Yes, day cares should make reasonable accommodations but it is not their job to provide services outside the ordinary. If you want her to have 1-1 care, offer to pay for a full-time aide. The aides probably float and are not dedicated to one child. Your concern is valid but if you do not think they can meet her needs, you'll need to look elsewhere like many of us have had to do.

It IS their job to follow the law

That doesn't include hiring a 1:1 aide. However, if a parent pays for the aide, the daycare would have to try to accommodate that.

I do not see how an aide is needed when the only concern is within 1 minute that could never actually be used.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

But keeping a 2 year old in an infant room is not appropriate care. It's a programmatic difference, not just a location difference.

OP, I would push back. Like another poster said, the reasonable accommodation can be putting a 2 year old classroom on the 1st floor or designating someone to carry her out. For the poster who thought the concern might be that all the teachers could get injured and so no one would be able to carry her out -- if that happened, it would be a problem for all the 2 year olds, since even 2 year olds without disabilities cannot safely evacuate a building by themselves.

One person could manage to get a group of fully mobile 2 year olds down at flight of stairs, but it might involve some handholding or other physical work, especially if they’re scared. If that one teacher is already carrying one child because she cannot walk down the stairs, what does she do when there’s a logjam or kids who suddenly feel the need for a handhold to keep going? Does she leave a few kids behind and just carry OP’s child out, hoping the others will eventually start walking? Abandon OP’s child because that allows her to save the greatest number of children? These are the kinds of scenarios a daycare needs to consider. I agree that keeping her in the infant room is not appropriate, but it’s also helpful to keep in mind all of the relevant considerations as OP works toward an appropriate resolution.

+1. I don't think the daycare's position is unreasonable. If there are only a limited number of staff guaranteed to be in that 2 year old room at one time and they do not feel they can get OP's child out and the other child out safely with those ratios they should try to figure out another solution. In the worst case, a staff member might be so occupied by your child that she might lose another child, or the staff member might be busy with several screaming children in in the chaos not be able to carry out your child. I would not push this, for everyone's sake.

One idea is for you to pay for a 1:1 shadow if you feel strongly about her being in that room. You could also wait it out a bit and work on the scooting idea which, again, is a reasonable suggestion. If there's another classroom that's more accessible and they can just switch the two classes, I think that would be reasonable, too, and you could suggest that to the daycare

What's not reasonable is for them to hire an extra person just to be able to help your DD manage the stairs in case of an emergency.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly NOT what the ADA means -- yes, in some circumstances a 1-1 aide is required because the accommodation that is necessary is so complex that it requires 1 person's attention all the time, but that is NOT the case here. Your response is classic stigmatic one that places an extreme financial burden on a the special needs parent and as a result has the result of excluding the disabled person from full and equal participation in public amenities. The ADA was designed to shift that burden where reasonable accommodations could be made.

We are talking about 1 kid, out of 8, maximum, who can walk but needs their hand held on the stairs in the unlikely event of a fire drill or real fire. If your daycare cannot handle that minor accommodation, because they are so busy with other 2 year olds, then I would seriously question whether they have a good evacuation plan. The teachers must accompany the kids out of the room and if they cannot hold even 1 child's hands, then there is a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

But keeping a 2 year old in an infant room is not appropriate care. It's a programmatic difference, not just a location difference.

OP, I would push back. Like another poster said, the reasonable accommodation can be putting a 2 year old classroom on the 1st floor or designating someone to carry her out. For the poster who thought the concern might be that all the teachers could get injured and so no one would be able to carry her out -- if that happened, it would be a problem for all the 2 year olds, since even 2 year olds without disabilities cannot safely evacuate a building by themselves.

One person could manage to get a group of fully mobile 2 year olds down at flight of stairs, but it might involve some handholding or other physical work, especially if they’re scared. If that one teacher is already carrying one child because she cannot walk down the stairs, what does she do when there’s a logjam or kids who suddenly feel the need for a handhold to keep going? Does she leave a few kids behind and just carry OP’s child out, hoping the others will eventually start walking? Abandon OP’s child because that allows her to save the greatest number of children? These are the kinds of scenarios a daycare needs to consider. I agree that keeping her in the infant room is not appropriate, but it’s also helpful to keep in mind all of the relevant considerations as OP works toward an appropriate resolution.

+1. I don't think the daycare's position is unreasonable. If there are only a limited number of staff guaranteed to be in that 2 year old room at one time and they do not feel they can get OP's child out and the other child out safely with those ratios they should try to figure out another solution. In the worst case, a staff member might be so occupied by your child that she might lose another child, or the staff member might be busy with several screaming children in in the chaos not be able to carry out your child. I would not push this, for everyone's sake.

One idea is for you to pay for a 1:1 shadow if you feel strongly about her being in that room. You could also wait it out a bit and work on the scooting idea which, again, is a reasonable suggestion. If there's another classroom that's more accessible and they can just switch the two classes, I think that would be reasonable, too, and you could suggest that to the daycare

What's not reasonable is for them to hire an extra person just to be able to help your DD manage the stairs in case of an emergency.

I'm sorry, but this is exactly NOT what the ADA means -- yes, in some circumstances a 1-1 aide is required because the accommodation that is necessary is so complex that it requires 1 person's attention all the time, but that is NOT the case here. Your response is classic stigmatic one that places an extreme financial burden on a the special needs parent and as a result has the result of excluding the disabled person from full and equal participation in public amenities. The ADA was designed to shift that burden where reasonable accommodations could be made.

We are talking about 1 kid, out of 8, maximum, who can walk but needs their hand held on the stairs in the unlikely event of a fire drill or real fire. If your daycare cannot handle that minor accommodation, because they are so busy with other 2 year olds, then I would seriously question whether they have a good evacuation plan. The teachers must accompany the kids out of the room and if they cannot hold even 1 child's hands, then there is a problem.

OP's child cannot walk down stairs at all, even holding a hand.

[Anonymous]

OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

You don't need a "rescue carry" to take a 2 year old down a flight of stairs, unless there are other complications like a child who is attached to heavy medical equipment. A 2 year old can ride on a teacher's hip.

Having a 2 year old in an infant room is not a reasonable accommodation. There is so much evidence that children need age appropriate peers and experiences to grow their skills, so she belongs in the two year old room. In this case, the reasonable accommodation is that the teacher carries her down the stairs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

You don't need a "rescue carry" to take a 2 year old down a flight of stairs, unless there are other complications like a child who is attached to heavy medical equipment. A 2 year old can ride on a teacher's hip.

Having a 2 year old in an infant room is not a reasonable accommodation. There is so much evidence that children need age appropriate peers and experiences to grow their skills, so she belongs in the two year old room. In this case, the reasonable accommodation is that the teacher carries her down the stairs.

They aren't putting her in an infant room. They want to keep her in a toddler room, which children ages 13-23 (or so) months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

As a former preschool teacher, I can tell you that an actual fire with me in the building would be one of my worst nightmares, first floor or second, carrying or not.

But, I can't see how having a kid on one hip would change that. I'd still be leading a line or following the end of the line of little people either way.

8:1 is not a good ratio. Not because of emergencies, but because day to day it's not enough staffing to both meet kids needs and interact and teach. I would be concerned about that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a bit of a gray area. They have to provide "reasonable accomodations," which can vary by situation. Do they have a problem carrying her down the stairs? If so what is the problem and is there a "reasonable" method to overcome the problem. Maybe they can train staff to do a rescue carry? There are also specialized transport devices that can take adults down stairs, there are probably child versions. Can they afford to get one?

On the other hand, they can argue that keeping your kid in the infant room is in fact a reasonable accommodation, since they still would be providing appropriate care, even if not in the best location.

You don't need a "rescue carry" to take a 2 year old down a flight of stairs, unless there are other complications like a child who is attached to heavy medical equipment. A 2 year old can ride on a teacher's hip.

Having a 2 year old in an infant room is not a reasonable accommodation. There is so much evidence that children need age appropriate peers and experiences to grow their skills, so she belongs in the two year old room. In this case, the reasonable accommodation is that the teacher carries her down the stairs.

They aren't putting her in an infant room. They want to keep her in a toddler room, which children ages 13-23 (or so) months.

Placing her in a room with kids who are not her age is not a reasonable accommodation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

So even if they give you the accommodations you want, you still have serious concerns about your child's safety. It sounds like maybe you should find a different daycare.

OP here, like I have said, there are no daycares with immediate openings in our area or waitlists that aren't huge. There is one that is new I can tour, I am so happy with this school accommodating her in every other way. They have never complained about her PT coming in weekly and are so eager to help her get around otherwise. I would really hate to leave them, which is why I made this post, I really want to make this work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I don't see where I said I need an aide. That would be a huge financial burden and so unnecessary. The school said they would be able to carry her down/up the stairs to go outside twice a day. That it would be no problem. But now they are saying they are worried about doing that in an emergency.

A few have suggested moving the 2 year olds downstairs but there is no space. Currently the 2, 3 and 4-5 year olds are upstairs with two sets of stairs, including a few very small businesses in the building. I feel like an actual emergency would be a nightmare situation.

I don't see how you can say that evacuating in an emergency would be a nightmare even without a staff member needing to carrying your child, but then say it shouldn't be a big deal if one of their staff members has to carry your child rather than helping a whole group get down stairs.

Both scenarios would be a nightmare. Maybe the bigger issue is they have 8:1 ratio which is terrible for a 2 story school. Especially after I learn DC is 4:1 and MD is 6:1, I thought we were 8:1 b/c that was all that was needed.

As a former preschool teacher, I can tell you that an actual fire with me in the building would be one of my worst nightmares, first floor or second, carrying or not.

But, I can't see how having a kid on one hip would change that. I'd still be leading a line or following the end of the line of little people either way.

8:1 is not a good ratio. Not because of emergencies, but because day to day it's not enough staffing to both meet kids needs and interact and teach. I would be concerned about that.

So what do you do when one of the kids in your line trips and falls and needs your help to get up? Do you put down OP'd kid to help that one, then pick her up again and slow up the whole group? What if the child is sufficiently injured that they can't/won't walk the rest of the way, can you still effectively monitor six walking children while carrying two children? Do you leave the kid that fell behind? Let the other kids go ahead and hope they get out on their own? Realistically, if they know a staff member will have to carry a particular child in an emergency because that child cannot get him/herself out of the building on their own two feet, you need to take that person out of the equation for everyone else.