Brown v UChicago?

[Anonymous]

Unless Brown was free, I would avoid it like the plague.

I would read Jonathan Haidt before making a decision

https://heterodoxacademy.org/one-telos-truth-or-social-justice/

In his words

As a social psychologist who studies morality, I have watched these two teloses come into conflict increasingly often during my 30 years in the academy. The conflicts seemed manageable in the 1990s. But the intensity of conflict has grown since then, at the same time as the political diversity of the professoriate was plummeting, and at the same time as American cross-partisan hostility was rising. I believe the conflict reached its boiling point in the fall of 2015 when student protesters at 80 universities demanded that their universities make much greater and more explicit commitments to social justice, often including mandatory courses and training for everyone in social justice perspectives and content.

Now that many university presidents have agreed to implement many of the demands, I believe that the conflict between truth and social justice is likely to become unmanageable. Universities will have to choose, and be explicit about their choice, so that potential students and faculty recruits can make an informed choice. Universities that try to honor both will face increasing incoherence and internal conflict.........I think it is clear that no university can have Truth and Social Justice as dual teloses. Each university must pick one. I show that Brown University has staked out the leadership position for SJU, and the University of Chicago has staked out the leadership position for Truth U.

[Anonymous]

Major and ECs might enter into DC’s decision as well. Encourage DC to look at course offerings, faculty research projects, clubs, etc.

And the Haidt argument is BS. Train people to be self-critical and empathetic and you further both objectives. Choose one (truth/justice) over the other in some kind of categorical manner and whichever one you choose will end up badly served. (As, of course, will the value you subordinate).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Major and ECs might enter into DC’s decision as well. Encourage DC to look at course offerings, faculty research projects, clubs, etc.

And the Haidt argument is BS. Train people to be self-critical and empathetic and you further both objectives. Choose one (truth/justice) over the other in some kind of categorical manner and whichever one you choose will end up badly served. (As, of course, will the value you subordinate).

It is clear that you have either not read what he has to say or simply don't understand what he argues for, or are deliberately distorting his views to suit your nefarious goals.

I am not saying that an individual student cannot pursue both goals. In the talk below I urge students to embrace truth as the only way that they can pursue activism that will effectively enhance social justice.

He doesn't demand that individual students choose one or the other, but an educational institution must, because otherwise it cannot do what you yourself want i.e. Train people to be self-critical and empathetic

Go back and read him instead of making a fool of yourself by doing a drive-by analysis

[Anonymous]

Much more familiar with UofC; DH is on the faculty there. But, I've been to Brown and know a lot of people who have connections there as well. They are fairly different -- one still has a core and used to be a great books school, one has an open curriculum. One is known as borderline conservative (which is only partially true), while one is known as one of the if not the most liberal Ivy.

Those two factors would be enough to make the decision for me -- if the idea of a campus keeping a controversial speaker away makes your kid uncomfortable, then your kid will probably prefer UofC. They prize intellectual rigor above everything else, and that's true from day one and it includes forcing people to encounter opinions different from their own. This is a true stereotype; many of the other UofC stereotypes are either old or overblown (like, the kids don't party, there's nothing to do in Hyde Park, etc). Having lived in Hyde Park, the partying thing is definitely not true and the restaurant/food scene has improved by leaps and bounds. Also, students just take Uber or Lyft to get into the rest of Chicago.

UofC students are not soulless robots, nor do I think their caliber is so lofty and "in-the-clouds" as people like to think. They're college students, just... a little more serious than average.

The quarter system is no joke.

[Anonymous]

The two PPs above are a good example of the dichotomy between the two schools. BTW - All the elite schools have a vast # of ECs and if there's anything you can rely upon, it is that EC interests will widen and shift in college as they discover who they really are off the college admissions treadmill. Some self discovery is the least one should expect from the rather substantial college cost.
I would also not worry so much about major unless it's a department they are totally missing, and as a focus even that is likely to change (engineering for example). For banking and consulting, you could major in anything from a prestigious school. I'm not familiar with education as a major but suspect that's an area that requires graduate work so again major doesn't matter. Training the mind for where you hope to be in 10 years, that's important IMO.

[Anonymous]

I’m the poster who suggested looking at ECs and majors. Yes, you can often pursue the same ECs at different schools, but my DC, for example, particularly appreciated that, at UofC, unlike some other schools she looked at (not Brown), she found that she could pursue her ECs in ways that didn’t keep her from pursuing a rigorous courseload. At the same time, she felt kids were serious about the EC (cared about doing things well). Basically, she was happy to find a cohort with similar take on where they wanted these activities to fit in their lives. So it’s not just a matter of looking at lists of clubs. DC can use accepted student days (or Facebook groups) to get in touch with kids involved in specific activities and see if they’re simpatico.

Also, while majors change, I suspect that many of the changes are to other fields that were already of interest to the student at the beginning of college. As a HS senior I chose one college over another because I was only really interested in one major at one school — couldn’t find a compelling Plan B. The other school had lots of courses/faculty that were of interest to me. And both DH and I gave up on an EC we loved in HS and had planned to continue in college because the expectation was that you’d choose courses around the EC (keep M and F free for travel) and we both thought that sounded effed up.

Personally, I don’t think Brown and UChicago polar opposites. I think that there are intellectual kids who could flourish at either, but whose choice might well (or should advisably) come down to where they thought they could best pursue their particular interests at this stage of their life.

[Anonymous]

Anyone know cross-admit data? I'd bet over 90% choose UofC for no other reason than it's #3 and Brown is #14 on US News.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m the poster who suggested looking at ECs and majors. Yes, you can often pursue the same ECs at different schools, but my DC, for example, particularly appreciated that, at UofC, unlike some other schools she looked at (not Brown), she found that she could pursue her ECs in ways that didn’t keep her from pursuing a rigorous courseload. At the same time, she felt kids were serious about the EC (cared about doing things well). Basically, she was happy to find a cohort with similar take on where they wanted these activities to fit in their lives. So it’s not just a matter of looking at lists of clubs. DC can use accepted student days (or Facebook groups) to get in touch with kids involved in specific activities and see if they’re simpatico.

Also, while majors change, I suspect that many of the changes are to other fields that were already of interest to the student at the beginning of college. As a HS senior I chose one college over another because I was only really interested in one major at one school — couldn’t find a compelling Plan B. The other school had lots of courses/faculty that were of interest to me. And both DH and I gave up on an EC we loved in HS and had planned to continue in college because the expectation was that you’d choose courses around the EC (keep M and F free for travel) and we both thought that sounded effed up.

Personally, I don’t think Brown and UChicago polar opposites. I think that there are intellectual kids who could flourish at either, but whose choice might well (or should advisably) come down to where they thought they could best pursue their particular interests at this stage of their life.

That is a very good point and one I'm glad was elaborated upon from my comment back on the original. Yes, the commitment to ECs by fellow students and the academics first commitment by EC leaders has been important to the life balance and satisfaction with the school. In terms of the majors, DC is one of many fellow peers that have made deep dives into unfamiliar territory. perhaps like attracts like

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone know cross-admit data? I'd bet over 90% choose UofC for no other reason than it's #3 and Brown is #14 on US News.

Thankfully this is not the case. If a lot of kids were applying to both schools and were getting accepted to both and 90% of such kids were choosing UChicago it would make Chicago an intolerable place for serious students because it would be run over by insufferable SJW's. Thankfully the applicant pool mostly sorts itself out, allowing both sets of applicants to be happy at the school they choose.

While Parchment is not perfect, their results seem to indicate that there is not enough overlap (they don't seem to have a large enough sample size to reach any definitive conclusions about student preference, but right now it looks like a statistical wash)

http://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=University+of+Chicago&with=Brown+University

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Major and ECs might enter into DC’s decision as well. Encourage DC to look at course offerings, faculty research projects, clubs, etc.

And the Haidt argument is BS. Train people to be self-critical and empathetic and you further both objectives. Choose one (truth/justice) over the other in some kind of categorical manner and whichever one you choose will end up badly served. (As, of course, will the value you subordinate).

It is clear that you have either not read what he has to say or simply don't understand what he argues for, or are deliberately distorting his views to suit your nefarious goals.

I am not saying that an individual student cannot pursue both goals. In the talk below I urge students to embrace truth as the only way that they can pursue activism that will effectively enhance social justice.

He doesn't demand that individual students choose one or the other, but an educational institution must, because otherwise it cannot do what you yourself want i.e. Train people to be self-critical and empathetic

Go back and read him instead of making a fool of yourself by doing a drive-by analysis

Not the PP you’re responding to but am the Brown alum PP who turned down U Chicago. It’s true that Brown is full of social justice types. I’m not that type at all and found it was really more the students that are that way, not the faculty. Meaning you can still chart your own course and be conservative if you want and get plenty of faculty support. I do feel like Brown completely disillusioned me from uber-liberal politics, which I kind of appreciate!!!

[Anonymous]

I've been to both campuses and if done back-to-back Brown's campus seems shabby, sort of second-class. What are the most recent major projects built or renovated at Brown? Can't be much. Night and day to all the eight and nine figures construction in Hyde Park, Chicago.

[Anonymous]

^ pending project at UofC, another new nine-figure dorm complex

[Anonymous]

I went to U of C for grad school. Admittedly, this was 10 years ago, but all the undergrads I encountered seemed overworked and utterly miserable. No one that I encountered seemed to have much of a social life or happy opinions about the school - there is a reason that one of the campus sayings is "U of C is where fun goes to die." The campus is beautiful, but also grey and gritty. No one is out on the quad playing frisbee or catching some sun like at my undergrad. Hyde Park was not the safest and the campus was literally surrounded by burned out buildings/ neighborhoods. I did not have kids then, but I remember thinking that I would never allow a child to attend this school for undergrad. Maybe a lot has changed in 10 year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I went to U of C for grad school. Admittedly, this was 10 years ago, but all the undergrads I encountered seemed overworked and utterly miserable. No one that I encountered seemed to have much of a social life or happy opinions about the school - there is a reason that one of the campus sayings is "U of C is where fun goes to die." The campus is beautiful, but also grey and gritty. No one is out on the quad playing frisbee or catching some sun like at my undergrad. Hyde Park was not the safest and the campus was literally surrounded by burned out buildings/ neighborhoods. I did not have kids then, but I remember thinking that I would never allow a child to attend this school for undergrad. Maybe a lot has changed in 10 year.

Every one of these observations is totally incorrect about the undergrad population today including the "where fun goes to die" anachronistic phrase. Kids nowadays regularly play midnight football and broomball on the midway in today's Chicago, Hyde Park is actually much safer than neighborhoods surrounding Stanford, Harvard and Penn. Look up the crime reporting stats. I was surprised when I looked it up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^ pending project at UofC, another new nine-figure dorm complex

Is this real? That's an undergrad dorm??