Why is TJHSST exempt from overcrowding?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:TJ ain't gonna be shut down. Ain't gonna happen. So don't hold your breath on that.

While TJ is mostly Asian/White and most of the kids prepped (except for the kids of those posting on DCUM, of course) the kids and the parents go through a lot to get the kids there. Time/money spent driving to/from "enrichment" classes; driving to/from the drop-off bus stop, etc.

The simple solution is to dilute the effects of AAP and TJ on the school system. How? Make all schools AAP. AAP should be opt-in at the subject level all the way through HS. This would allow base HS to make TJ-level education available to everyone. Eventually, TJ-specific interest will drop and local kids will start going there.

Funding is the issue of course. Why not cancel bus services and have parents drop off and pick up the kids as TJ parents do today? How many of you would sign up for that in return for a better quality education?
Increase taxes - Any takers?

I would support it and wish it were available now. Right now, my kid is not being sufficiently challenged (DC is in the area of not being at the tippy-top of scores but a very high achiever; DC gets the "regular" curriculum even though in some subjects DC would be able to work at a higher level). This approach would allow more of a focus on individual capabilities rather than the current cookie cutter approach in FCPS.

I'd be happy to drive and increase what I pay for it.

I don't have a huge issue with TJ other than I feel like none of my taxes should go to it if my kid gets no benefit from it (as another PP mentioned, the practices were supp'd to bleed out to the other schools but that clearly has not happened). It's a pretty isolated institution. That's what I don't like about it.

I'm the pp you responded to.. I have a kid in TJ and one in ES (but will be discouraged from going to TJ). Not all parents are rich or Upper middle class (we aren't). I would LOVE it if the kind of education that TJ provides were available at every HS. My TJ kid is not great in all subjects. If we had the equivalent of Level III AAP at all High schools, my DC would be taking the highest level of Science classes but not math. At TJ there's no choice. I'd love to drive 10 mins to school and back as opposed to having to schlep across the county in case there's a need to stay late at school or teacher meetings. We are also missing a lot in terms of community interaction as a result of not going to the base HS and I suspect that some of our friends & neighbors post snarky anti-TJ messages on DCUM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'll bite:

TJ admissions favor
1) Kids from higher SES families who potentially give kids greater opportunities
2) Kids whose parents are highly educated who emphasize the importance of education
3) Kids from cultures that emphasize education (and perhaps prepping)

These things tend to be correlated with race.

So what is the solution? First, try basing admissions on un-preppable tests. Advertise the program more heavily in areas with kids without these advantages.

Obviously, this will only do so much. Most of these advantage come from the kids' home life.

Should the schools consciously take race into account when admitting students? Many would argue that this is explicit racist.
Even if one takes race into account in the second, more holistic, phase of the admissions process, it is probably too late. Few AA and Hispanic kids make it into the second round of the admissions process.

True, True and True. I have a kid at TJ and a kid in the middle of applying and go back and forth on this. If there are a limited number of spots, they should go to the kids that want them badly enough to work for them, right? Except that if you take this too far, you get a race to nowhere. My genuinely brilliant kid who likes good at STEM and lots of other things but has lazy streak kid was admitted. My all STEM all the time kid who oozes STEM passion and has her STEM career planned out and works so hard at everything kid may not. Kid1 says frankly that if he was admitted and Kid2 is not, there is something very, very wrong with TJ admissions. He might be right. Or, it might be that he spent years not being challenged by FCPS AAP and getting the easy As, and he’s the one who really needs the extra push in high school, while she will be fine with the full slate of APs at her base school. To you take the smartest kids? Or do you take The Who show that they want it the most? Right now, TJ aims for a mixture of the two. Imperfectly. With a heavy dose of luck.

As for SES, the reality is that getting into TJ is hard. Succeeding at TJ is hard. Parenting a kid at TJ is hard. The kids need to be smart and to work hard. But they also need academic, financial, and emotional support at home. Kids who can succeed at TJ without significant parental investment in their education are genuine outliers. I don’t think you do kids any favors by lowering admissions standards for them unless you are also prepared to make the curriculum significantly easier. Admitting a kid who can’t succeed does more harm than good.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'll bite:

TJ admissions favor
1) Kids from higher SES families who potentially give kids greater opportunities
2) Kids whose parents are highly educated who emphasize the importance of education
3) Kids from cultures that emphasize education (and perhaps prepping)

These things tend to be correlated with race.

So what is the solution? First, try basing admissions on un-preppable tests. Advertise the program more heavily in areas with kids without these advantages.

Obviously, this will only do so much. Most of these advantage come from the kids' home life.

Should the schools consciously take race into account when admitting students? Many would argue that this is explicit racist.
Even if one takes race into account in the second, more holistic, phase of the admissions process, it is probably too late. Few AA and Hispanic kids make it into the second round of the admissions process.

True, True and True. I have a kid at TJ and a kid in the middle of applying and go back and forth on this. If there are a limited number of spots, they should go to the kids that want them badly enough to work for them, right? Except that if you take this too far, you get a race to nowhere. My genuinely brilliant kid who likes good at STEM and lots of other things but has lazy streak kid was admitted. My all STEM all the time kid who oozes STEM passion and has her STEM career planned out and works so hard at everything kid may not. Kid1 says frankly that if he was admitted and Kid2 is not, there is something very, very wrong with TJ admissions. He might be right. Or, it might be that he spent years not being challenged by FCPS AAP and getting the easy As, and he’s the one who really needs the extra push in high school, while she will be fine with the full slate of APs at her base school. To you take the smartest kids? Or do you take The Who show that they want it the most? Right now, TJ aims for a mixture of the two. Imperfectly. With a heavy dose of luck.

As for SES, the reality is that getting into TJ is hard. Succeeding at TJ is hard. Parenting a kid at TJ is hard. The kids need to be smart and to work hard. But they also need academic, financial, and emotional support at home. Kids who can succeed at TJ without significant parental investment in their education are genuine outliers. I don’t think you do kids any favors by lowering admissions standards for them unless you are also prepared to make the curriculum significantly easier. Admitting a kid who can’t succeed does more harm than good.

+1. Well put. For those of you clamoring to "open up TJ to everyone".. Be careful what you wish for. TJ is a real PIA. I'll not send my second DC there!

[Anonymous]

My DH and his brother went to TJ. Neither of them would send their kids. They both think it was basically overkill, harder than college (one went to HYPS one went to Cal Tech) and generally a bad experience in hindsight.

[Anonymous]

The issue isn't whether TJ may be an exceptional experience for some students or a miserable experience for others. It is whether a selective school that is given special treatment in many ways (admissions policies, resources, and use of a building and piece of land) can be justified when there are other schools in FCPS that are seriously overcrowded. As a matter of basic fairness, the answer clearly seems to be no.

I guess reframing the issue is a good way to try to avoid the fundamental question.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't whether TJ may be an exceptional experience for some students or a miserable experience for others. It is whether a selective school that is given special treatment in many ways (admissions policies, resources, and use of a building and piece of land) can be justified when there are other schools in FCPS that are seriously overcrowded. As a matter of basic fairness, the answer clearly seems to be no.

I guess reframing the issue is a good way to try to avoid the fundamental question.

That's not what the VA assembly just said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIsiJ-5oUeY

So please explain the basis for the "clearly" in your statement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't whether TJ may be an exceptional experience for some students or a miserable experience for others. It is whether a selective school that is given special treatment in many ways (admissions policies, resources, and use of a building and piece of land) can be justified when there are other schools in FCPS that are seriously overcrowded. As a matter of basic fairness, the answer clearly seems to be no.

I guess reframing the issue is a good way to try to avoid the fundamental question.

That's not what the VA assembly just said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIsiJ-5oUeY

So please explain the basis for the "clearly" in your statement.

I don’t disagree this should be a county decision, rather that a state decision, which is what the VA committee voted down. But it doesn’t change the underlying issues.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't whether TJ may be an exceptional experience for some students or a miserable experience for others. It is whether a selective school that is given special treatment in many ways (admissions policies, resources, and use of a building and piece of land) can be justified when there are other schools in FCPS that are seriously overcrowded. As a matter of basic fairness, the answer clearly seems to be no.

I guess reframing the issue is a good way to try to avoid the fundamental question.

That's not what the VA assembly just said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIsiJ-5oUeY

So please explain the basis for the "clearly" in your statement.

I don’t disagree this should be a county decision, rather that a state decision, which is what the VA committee voted down. But it doesn’t change the underlying issues.

Ha ha ha! The whole reason someone tried to introduce a bill was that the county has done nothing over the past several years (and likely never will).

The "underlying" issue is different from what's being discussed here. TJ is just the strawman.

The real underlying issue is that minorities don't get a fair shot at higher education. This begins in elementary school. How about we make all schools AAP and allow kids to be placed into AAP level classes as they choose? It means better teachers, more pay, etc. How do we fund this? More taxes of course.. How many are willing to put up with this?

[Anonymous]

^^^^ this. The idea behind this bill is that TJ can take kids who have spent 9 years in GE in a weak ES and MS, and who don’t have the family resources backing them up, wave a magic wand, say a math spell, and poof, they will become 4.0 8th grade Algebra II Carson AAP kids. That’s impossible. It takes actual work to close the achievement gap. Starting in PK, so kids come into K with the foundation to learn. So they become great readers who go into AAPk and track towards the higher math in MS, and so on. You can’t come to TJ with gaps and expect to pass the classes.

This bill wants to hand TJ unprepared 14 year olds and tell them to somehow close the achievement gap. That’s impossible, so TJ gets dumbed down.

Op doesn’t care about the achievement gap, or poor kids or URMs. PP cares that her kid, who is brilliant and passionate about STEM did not get a spot, while some soulless Asian robot who was locked in a room for 10 years with nothing but bread, water and a Kumon book got in instead. OP knows her kid is. OP doesn’t want a system that admits poors. OP wants a system that admits her kid. And once her kid is in, she doesn’t want the poors messing things up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^^^^ this. The idea behind this bill is that TJ can take kids who have spent 9 years in GE in a weak ES and MS, and who don’t have the family resources backing them up, wave a magic wand, say a math spell, and poof, they will become 4.0 8th grade Algebra II Carson AAP kids. That’s impossible. It takes actual work to close the achievement gap. Starting in PK, so kids come into K with the foundation to learn. So they become great readers who go into AAPk and track towards the higher math in MS, and so on. You can’t come to TJ with gaps and expect to pass the classes.

This bill wants to hand TJ unprepared 14 year olds and tell them to somehow close the achievement gap. That’s impossible, so TJ gets dumbed down.

Op doesn’t care about the achievement gap, or poor kids or URMs. PP cares that her kid, who is brilliant and passionate about STEM did not get a spot, while some soulless Asian robot who was locked in a room for 10 years with nothing but bread, water and a Kumon book got in instead. OP knows her kid is. OP doesn’t want a system that admits poors. OP wants a system that admits her kid. And once her kid is in, she doesn’t want the poors messing things up.

all of your memories are short. TJ tried to be more diverse less than 10 years ago and it was a disaster. Lots of people had to be put into remedial math and clearly didn't belong so the program was scrapped.

Look this issue is bigger than TJ you are talking about changing culture/focus. Fact is there are people that are focused on education and getting into TJ from as early as elementary school. Is that healthy who knows but its what is happening. So unless you want to open up a test prep center specifically for blacks and hispanics nothing is going to change and you know what that;s fine. PS TJ students already do tons of outreach to underrepresented minorities and school districts already. It really comes down to the parents which is a culture thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^^^^ this. The idea behind this bill is that TJ can take kids who have spent 9 years in GE in a weak ES and MS, and who don’t have the family resources backing them up, wave a magic wand, say a math spell, and poof, they will become 4.0 8th grade Algebra II Carson AAP kids. That’s impossible. It takes actual work to close the achievement gap. Starting in PK, so kids come into K with the foundation to learn. So they become great readers who go into AAPk and track towards the higher math in MS, and so on. You can’t come to TJ with gaps and expect to pass the classes.

This bill wants to hand TJ unprepared 14 year olds and tell them to somehow close the achievement gap. That’s impossible, so TJ gets dumbed down.

Op doesn’t care about the achievement gap, or poor kids or URMs. PP cares that her kid, who is brilliant and passionate about STEM did not get a spot, while some soulless Asian robot who was locked in a room for 10 years with nothing but bread, water and a Kumon book got in instead. OP knows her kid is. OP doesn’t want a system that admits poors. OP wants a system that admits her kid. And once her kid is in, she doesn’t want the poors messing things up.

all of your memories are short. TJ tried to be more diverse less than 10 years ago and it was a disaster. Lots of people had to be put into remedial math and clearly didn't belong so the program was scrapped.

Look this issue is bigger than TJ you are talking about changing culture/focus. Fact is there are people that are focused on education and getting into TJ from as early as elementary school. Is that healthy who knows but its what is happening. So unless you want to open up a test prep center specifically for blacks and hispanics nothing is going to change and you know what that;s fine. PS TJ students already do tons of outreach to underrepresented minorities and school districts already. It really comes down to the parents which is a culture thing.

One other thing its not even a money thing. Carson is in an area that isn't that expensive compared to Fairfax County as a whole. It's making choices like specifically picking real estate in a known TJ feeder/pipeline

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The issue isn't whether TJ may be an exceptional experience for some students or a miserable experience for others. It is whether a selective school that is given special treatment in many ways (admissions policies, resources, and use of a building and piece of land) can be justified when there are other schools in FCPS that are seriously overcrowded. As a matter of basic fairness, the answer clearly seems to be no.

I guess reframing the issue is a good way to try to avoid the fundamental question.

That's not what the VA assembly just said.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIsiJ-5oUeY

So please explain the basis for the "clearly" in your statement.

I don’t disagree this should be a county decision, rather that a state decision, which is what the VA committee voted down. But it doesn’t change the underlying issues.

Ha ha ha! The whole reason someone tried to introduce a bill was that the county has done nothing over the past several years (and likely never will).

The "underlying" issue is different from what's being discussed here. TJ is just the strawman.

The real underlying issue is that minorities don't get a fair shot at higher education. This begins in elementary school. How about we make all schools AAP and allow kids to be placed into AAP level classes as they choose? It means better teachers, more pay, etc. How do we fund this? More taxes of course.. How many are willing to put up with this?

We start by electing School Board members who spend less time talking about equity and more time doing something about it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The actual answer to the question is that TJ, as a governor’s school, gets a financial supplement from the state per kid to offset the extra costs associated with educating a kid at TJ. And the state legislature sets the number of kids they are willing to pay a supplement for. Last time I checked, TJ still accepted more kids than the state reimburses for, and FCPS eats the added cost. To add even more kids above that, you need a bigger TJ budget.

Plus, even with the renovation, they only have so much space for the TJ specific mandatory classes, like Design Tech and Senior labs. And research labs and design tech are not classes you can safely or effectively add extra students to. History? Yes. Specialized microelectronics research? Not so much.

But I have a feeling Op was not looking for an actual answer.

I’m interested in the uptick in TJ is the root of all evil posts in February. Usually there is a spate of these posts after decisions are released in April. Were there an unusually large number of surprising first round cuts this year pwith the new test? Or do parents have the sense their kid bombed the SiS?

The current 8th grade class is the same bloated AAP year group that had the big test cheating scandal resulting in crazy amounts of kids being selected for AAP.

I am sure there is some correlation with what you are observing. Maybe you are hearing from people who just realized how much more difficult it is to cheat into TJ?

And I am not a TJ parent.

I am just annoyed by the "if my kid doesn't get the something special than no kid should get something special" crowd.

Yeah, what were they thinking when they came up with that silly “equal protection” clause?

I love it when people who aren’t lawyers try to play lawyers on TV.

You kid has the same opportunity to apply to TJ as any other kid. That’s the equal protection.

That’s right. Something, something protected class.

[Anonymous]

There is no compelling need for a magnet school in FCPS. It was only created as a marketing tool by a Republican-controlled Board of Supervisors and it now exists only to perpetuate itself. We need the building for 2200 Fairfax kids, not 1350 Fairfax kids and 450 kids from other jurisdictions. And anyone can see the endless talk about who gets in and who does not is incredibly divisive.