Is language an approximation of intelligence of a child is verbal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

+1, my kid has receptive issues and he is intelligent.

m


I think the consensus is that you can have receptive issues and be intelligent. But you can't be ID and not have a receptive delay. That was my understanding.

A kid can have ID and not have receptive delays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmmm. We did the PSL-5. I think it has a functional use aspect. But I'm not sure.

School psychologist here again. I dislike the PLS (preschool language scales) because it uses 6 month norms, which is ridiculous. So a kid who is tested just before his third birthday - so technically 2 years, 11 months will be compared to children 2 years, 6 months to 2 years, 11 months. So let's say that kid gets a raw score (answers correctly) of 30(I am making up scores because I don't have the manual in front of me) that kid might get a standard score of 85, percentile rank of 16 (child scored equal to or better than 16 percent of kids in that age bracket),which speech therapists would say is in the average range so not eligible for services. If you waited a day and tested that kid on his third birthday, he will be compared to kids 3 years, 0 months to 3years, 5 months and 30 days. The standard score would be around 75, percentile rank of 5 (only better than or equal to 5 percent of kids in that age bracket). Now the kid is eligible for special Ed. services.
So how old exactly was your child because it really matters when they just meet or miss an age cut off.

He was 4.3 months.

He also scored low average in the CELF-p for receptive by another slp. Definitely low average, not a fluke of the test.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

+1, my kid has receptive issues and he is intelligent.

m


I think the consensus is that you can have receptive issues and be intelligent. But you can't be ID and not have a receptive delay. That was my understanding.

A kid can have ID and not have receptive delays.

How do you know this? Is this something you've seen?

[Anonymous]

Yes - how could this be? 21:22 please explain

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

+1, my kid has receptive issues and he is intelligent.

m


I think the consensus is that you can have receptive issues and be intelligent. But you can't be ID and not have a receptive delay. That was my understanding.

A kid can have ID and not have receptive delays.

Explain. I don't think this is common at all.

[Anonymous]

I scanned this post and have two general comments to posters.

OP - I do have a daughter, now young adult with an ID, and when she was young, I was glad to see that she learned words and of course kept count of all she knew. She started speech therapy at age 3 - 10 year round private as well as school because we found that her strength was in verbal skills. I will say that it did help even in the early IQ testing not so much in ever changing the IQ score, but in the educational subtests which showed that she her language skills were well above her IQ, and, she did, in fact learn to read well given her profile. The SLP was correct to say that as one gets to higher order speech or language skills, you will see that the cognitive skills kick in for sequencing, making connections of date on a higher level. The key for me was always that she learned to read with good comprehension to her level as reading for readings sake is not all that great. She is an excellent speller having had a phonics based instruction. On the other hand, she does not on her own write letters to folks all that much, but will copy one well that we may generate in draft form together.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.
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I would just note that if there is any question at all in the speech ability of the young child that a fully immersion preschool environment even if English is the home language may not be the best setting. We have two grandchildren - fraternal twins who were in such a preschool, child care setting and the one with I will say average intelligence has had a difficult time in learning to read and even more so learning to write in kindergarten and first grade. In part it is due to developmental readiness with the new "push down" academics, but you also need to know that they no longer officially teach spelling in many public schools and all instruction is "paced." My close friend who was a reading specialist (top tutor in her area, too) had serious reservations for about this setting for the twins. However, one who is more gifted had no problems at all, but the one did. So it is just something to take into account. In theory it is a nice idea, but it can have an impact on some in acquiring main language. The GC has had a tutor for six months and is now getting some additional intervention this summer, but the expectation is to be an independent reader by third grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I scanned this post and have two general comments to posters.

OP - I do have a daughter, now young adult with an ID, and when she was young, I was glad to see that she learned words and of course kept count of all she knew. She started speech therapy at age 3 - 10 year round private as well as school because we found that her strength was in verbal skills. I will say that it did help even in the early IQ testing not so much in ever changing the IQ score, but in the educational subtests which showed that she her language skills were well above her IQ, and, she did, in fact learn to read well given her profile. The SLP was correct to say that as one gets to higher order speech or language skills, you will see that the cognitive skills kick in for sequencing, making connections of date on a higher level. The key for me was always that she learned to read with good comprehension to her level as reading for readings sake is not all that great. She is an excellent speller having had a phonics based instruction. On the other hand, she does not on her own write letters to folks all that much, but will copy one well that we may generate in draft form together.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.
[Report Post]

I would just note that if there is any question at all in the speech ability of the young child that a fully immersion preschool environment even if English is the home language may not be the best setting. We have two grandchildren - fraternal twins who were in such a preschool, child care setting and the one with I will say average intelligence has had a difficult time in learning to read and even more so learning to write in kindergarten and first grade. In part it is due to developmental readiness with the new "push down" academics, but you also need to know that they no longer officially teach spelling in many public schools and all instruction is "paced." My close friend who was a reading specialist (top tutor in her area, too) had serious reservations for about this setting for the twins. However, one who is more gifted had no problems at all, but the one did. So it is just something to take into account. In theory it is a nice idea, but it can have an impact on some in acquiring main language. The GC has had a tutor for six months and is now getting some additional intervention this summer, but the expectation is to be an independent reader by third grade.

Thank you! Did your daughter with ID have language delays or test in normal range? What were the scores that really brought her down/ I suspect my son really struggles with working memory.

[Anonymous]

OP - It is hard to compare any two children in terms of what testing might show at any age, but especially a young age as "official" evaluation scores for identification of an intellectual disability or cognitive disability are not accepted until age 6 as far as an official designation of a disability to qualify for later services. Also you can't compare the outcomes because there can be so many variables in terms of background of the person doing the testing, testing conditions, general focus of the child, adaptability of the young child to even working with a stranger or in a new setting etc.

I know you are looking for a definitive positive answer, but you just can't get it all that easily. The most important thing is to continue to surround your DC with language and lots of just general kid experiences. Read aloud each day, in play activities use words to teach DC to do things in terms of following simple directions, give DC opportunities to be around other children a bit older with more language as this may give DC a reason to use what he/she knows. Our middle daughter who is a pediatric PT used Signing Times videos with hter now 5 and 3 year old, and especially with the older girl, it really helped in language development. Signs were dropped as words came or used interchangeably for a time.

Our daughter has an ID, but the main thing I wanted to know is would she be able to talk and read, and she could read this post and understand it. Her verbal scores were always higher, but not in what would be called the normal range because of the higher order of thinking skills. At a young age, scores can be closer together because the gap with typical young children is not that wide. Again, do not over focus on testing results. Also to be clear it took time for her language to come as we started speech at 3 as she hadd over 200 words but would not chain as in "Hi Mama." Speech sessions started this quickly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP - It is hard to compare any two children in terms of what testing might show at any age, but especially a young age as "official" evaluation scores for identification of an intellectual disability or cognitive disability are not accepted until age 6 as far as an official designation of a disability to qualify for later services. Also you can't compare the outcomes because there can be so many variables in terms of background of the person doing the testing, testing conditions, general focus of the child, adaptability of the young child to even working with a stranger or in a new setting etc.

I know you are looking for a definitive positive answer, but you just can't get it all that easily. The most important thing is to continue to surround your DC with language and lots of just general kid experiences. Read aloud each day, in play activities use words to teach DC to do things in terms of following simple directions, give DC opportunities to be around other children a bit older with more language as this may give DC a reason to use what he/she knows. Our middle daughter who is a pediatric PT used Signing Times videos with hter now 5 and 3 year old, and especially with the older girl, it really helped in language development. Signs were dropped as words came or used interchangeably for a time.

Our daughter has an ID, but the main thing I wanted to know is would she be able to talk and read, and she could read this post and understand it. Her verbal scores were always higher, but not in what would be called the normal range because of the higher order of thinking skills. At a young age, scores can be closer together because the gap with typical young children is not that wide. Again, do not over focus on testing results. Also to be clear it took time for her language to come as we started speech at 3 as she hadd over 200 words but would not chain as in "Hi Mama." Speech sessions started this quickly.

I do really appreciate your response and perspective. Thank you. I'm guessing if she wasn't joining words together at 3 that she had a language delay. I was really wondering if it would be possible to test by an slp on a comprehensive test like the celf-p in average range and have a significant ID and I get that nobody can answer that, which is fine. Really just wondering if I could think of the scores as reassuring. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

[Anonymous]

What about an ADHD mixed with WISC verbal scores in 96 percentile and slow processing speed?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:SLP here.
Short answer, yes.
Language abilities in general cannot surpass cognitive abilities. Cognitive processes are the foundation, language is built upon those abilities. So, as long as language has been evaluated as within normal limits, general cognition should be fine. There can always be learning disabilities, difficulties and differences, so if there are concerns, you need to know the whole picture.
Some children on the autism spectrum may have seemingly high expressive language skills but will likely show deficits in functional language skills and more complex concepts.

SLP's should not be commenting on cognitive skills.
SLP's should be teaching speech and language - that's it.

Sorry - you don't know what you are talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:SLP here.
Short answer, yes.
Language abilities in general cannot surpass cognitive abilities. Cognitive processes are the foundation, language is built upon those abilities. So, as long as language has been evaluated as within normal limits, general cognition should be fine. There can always be learning disabilities, difficulties and differences, so if there are concerns, you need to know the whole picture.
Some children on the autism spectrum may have seemingly high expressive language skills but will likely show deficits in functional language skills and more complex concepts.

SLP's should not be commenting on cognitive skills.
SLP's should be teaching speech and language - that's it.

Sorry - you don't know what you are talking about.

Instead of just trying to tear down the PP can you offer your own credentials and an answer to the OP's question?

[Anonymous]

I don't know of this contributes to the discussion- if not, scroll on over...

My son has social pragmatic language deficits (real, not delayed he's almost ten and was tested last year). He also has speech articulation issues and regularly sees as SL therapist for both pragmatics/speech.

IQ score for verbal came back on two different IQ tests exceeding the 99th percentile. Language testing picked up in a lot of expressive/receptive language impairments.

The takeaway for us (as another pp said) it depends on what language is used for-- verbal reasoning and social communication may overlap, but in DS's case, obviously not much. However, social pragmatics deficits are major for overall global functioning-- I cannot tell you how it impacts DS in almost every way.

Just an example to take or leave.

[Anonymous]

Thanks all. Op here - obviously I just want reassurance that my son might not be cognitively delayed if speech is in average ranges. But it sounds Like it doesn't work that way

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Will not be able to rule out cognitive issues until neuropsych, but if a child is verbal, is a language score a reasonable approximation of intelligence or not? Have heard conflicting reports.

Many high IQ children, especially boys, have significant language delays.