Is language an approximation of intelligence of a child is verbal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is that true, that you don't see children with average language skills and significant cognitive disabilities?

For significant / severe cognitive disabilities? Yes, that would most likely be true. Even for a moderate cognitive disability you would be looking at fair language skills rather than average. Simple yes, but nothing too complex.
Might be difficult to differentiate at a young age, when fair skills are still the norm for the age group. But from what I know - not a SLP, just a minor in psychology with a focus on psycholinguistics / language acquisition (has been a while and I am not overly active in the field) - severe cognitive disabilities do not usually correlate with average language skill. Mild cognitive disabilities might see average language skills (in children). Learning disabilities can very well see average or above average language skills. But I would agree with 16:17 and 16:18 that in general language skills do not surpass cognitive abilities. The other way round, yes.

I am 16:17 (special educator) and I'm confused by this comment.

When I say "average" skills, I mean average for age. I'm guessing that the SLP meant the same thing. So, there isn't really an age where the norm is "fair" rather than "average". "Average" is, by definition, the norm.

A child with an intellectual disability is not going to present with average language skills, as tested by an SLP. Comprehensive language testing requires children to make connections, draw inferences, sequence, and do other things that are challenging for children with intellectual disabilities.

Having said that, I'll provide a couple caveats.

1) There are some syndromes that cause cognitive/intellectual disabilities for whom social skills are a strength. Williams syndrome comes to mind. These kids may easily acquire some of the very early social markers that an SLP looks for, so they may not look "language delayed" as infants. I've never been involved in formal testing for kids this young, but I wouldn't be surprised to see age appropriate language scores in a 6 month old who went on to have an intellectual and language disability. This doesn't apply to language testing done after the point at which kids can talk.

2) There are some kids, particularly kids with ASD, who acquire parts of language easily. For example, they may develop large vocabularies of nouns; be able to repeat long sentences, sometimes at a later time in the right context; and have great articulation and fluency. A casual observer, or even someone like a parent who has no other experience with kids, might look at these skills and conclude that the child has "great language skills". However, on a full battery of testing, the same child might show difficulty using language for a variety of purposes, creating novel sentences, and understanding spoken language. Many of those kids will have normal intelligence with specific language delays, but some may also have an intellectual disability.

3) There are things that cause kids to lose abilities. For example, a child can have age appropriate language skills, and then get hit by a bus, and end up significantly disabled.

4) Just like kids can have significant language delays and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like autism, or apraxia of speech, or aphasia, or hearing loss, kids can have significant delays in visual processing or motor skills and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like motor apraxia, CP, or visual processing disorders. Having age appropriate language doesn't mean that a child won't struggle substantially with school, or that they won't need significant support going forward.

This is interesting and a good explanation. For kids who fall under caveat 2, would a speech evaluation, a comprehensive one, show them as having average language? And as for kids that have receptive delays, that doesn't always mean intellectual disability, correct?

Yes, happened to my child with ASD whose language scores were higher than average. Only the Language Use Inventory test would reveal his deficiencies. Without it, the school wouldn't have provided services.

When you say this happened to your child with ASD, do you mean they were found to have an intellectual disability? It sounds as though you have a bright child whose autism impacts his pragmatic communication.

I agree that, when qualifying a child for therapy, clinicians need to look at both the overall scores, and the specific scores. So, a child whose language is average overall, but who has significant problems with one area such as articulation, fluency, pragmatics, etc . . . should still receive speech. However, that profile isn't generally the profile of a child with ID. ID children show delays in multiple areas.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is that true, that you don't see children with average language skills and significant cognitive disabilities?

For significant / severe cognitive disabilities? Yes, that would most likely be true. Even for a moderate cognitive disability you would be looking at fair language skills rather than average. Simple yes, but nothing too complex.
Might be difficult to differentiate at a young age, when fair skills are still the norm for the age group. But from what I know - not a SLP, just a minor in psychology with a focus on psycholinguistics / language acquisition (has been a while and I am not overly active in the field) - severe cognitive disabilities do not usually correlate with average language skill. Mild cognitive disabilities might see average language skills (in children). Learning disabilities can very well see average or above average language skills. But I would agree with 16:17 and 16:18 that in general language skills do not surpass cognitive abilities. The other way round, yes.

I am 16:17 (special educator) and I'm confused by this comment.

When I say "average" skills, I mean average for age. I'm guessing that the SLP meant the same thing. So, there isn't really an age where the norm is "fair" rather than "average". "Average" is, by definition, the norm.

A child with an intellectual disability is not going to present with average language skills, as tested by an SLP. Comprehensive language testing requires children to make connections, draw inferences, sequence, and do other things that are challenging for children with intellectual disabilities.

Having said that, I'll provide a couple caveats.

1) There are some syndromes that cause cognitive/intellectual disabilities for whom social skills are a strength. Williams syndrome comes to mind. These kids may easily acquire some of the very early social markers that an SLP looks for, so they may not look "language delayed" as infants. I've never been involved in formal testing for kids this young, but I wouldn't be surprised to see age appropriate language scores in a 6 month old who went on to have an intellectual and language disability. This doesn't apply to language testing done after the point at which kids can talk.

2) There are some kids, particularly kids with ASD, who acquire parts of language easily. For example, they may develop large vocabularies of nouns; be able to repeat long sentences, sometimes at a later time in the right context; and have great articulation and fluency. A casual observer, or even someone like a parent who has no other experience with kids, might look at these skills and conclude that the child has "great language skills". However, on a full battery of testing, the same child might show difficulty using language for a variety of purposes, creating novel sentences, and understanding spoken language. Many of those kids will have normal intelligence with specific language delays, but some may also have an intellectual disability.

3) There are things that cause kids to lose abilities. For example, a child can have age appropriate language skills, and then get hit by a bus, and end up significantly disabled.

4) Just like kids can have significant language delays and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like autism, or apraxia of speech, or aphasia, or hearing loss, kids can have significant delays in visual processing or motor skills and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like motor apraxia, CP, or visual processing disorders. Having age appropriate language doesn't mean that a child won't struggle substantially with school, or that they won't need significant support going forward.

This is interesting and a good explanation. For kids who fall under caveat 2, would a speech evaluation, a comprehensive one, show them as having average language? And as for kids that have receptive delays, that doesn't always mean intellectual disability, correct?

Yes, happened to my child with ASD whose language scores were higher than average. Only the Language Use Inventory test would reveal his deficiencies. Without it, the school wouldn't have provided services.

Interesting. My son does not have ASD, but he is only 4, so I can see the point about this not really being meaningful until higher order language comes into play.

I'm the special educator. To be clear, when I said "young kids" I was thinking 2 or under. By 4 they are able to look at skills like sequencing, and connecting ideas, during language testing in a way that you can't with kids who are only saying 1 or 2 words at a time.

[Anonymous]

Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

We're almost all educators in our family and have a good understanding of what's expected for a two-year-old. I was using the term "borderline" a bit loosely, but child's parents don't want to ignore something. I was just seeking thoughts here because we're not as knowledgeable about acquiring two languages at the same time and don't want to encourage an eval yet if not needed.

[Anonymous]

No b/c physical impairments can hinder speech. It has nothing to do with IQ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

We're almost all educators in our family and have a good understanding of what's expected for a two-year-old. I was using the term "borderline" a bit loosely, but child's parents don't want to ignore something. I was just seeking thoughts here because we're not as knowledgeable about acquiring two languages at the same time and don't want to encourage an eval yet if not needed.

Most research shows that bilingualism doesn't delay language, so I wouldn't delay an eval because a child is in bilingual education. However, I'm skeptical that your whole family is early childhood educators. What does his preschool teacher think? He/she would have the best sense of how he's doing relative to same age peers in a similar situation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:No b/c physical impairments can hinder speech. It has nothing to do with IQ.

Right, which is why speech/language can test low, while IQ is average/high. The people above are talking about the opposite -- low IQ, but average speech.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

We're almost all educators in our family and have a good understanding of what's expected for a two-year-old. I was using the term "borderline" a bit loosely, but child's parents don't want to ignore something. I was just seeking thoughts here because we're not as knowledgeable about acquiring two languages at the same time and don't want to encourage an eval yet if not needed.

Most research shows that bilingualism doesn't delay language, so I wouldn't delay an eval because a child is in bilingual education. However, I'm skeptical that your whole family is early childhood educators. What does his preschool teacher think? He/she would have the best sense of how he's doing relative to same age peers in a similar situation.

PP here. We're not all early childhood educators, but some of us evaluate elementary - middle school children. Some are special ed teachers. I just knew that many DCUM posters were familiar and knowledgeable about this area and pre-school, so seeking opinions. The school is saying that they're watching closely, and an eval might be appropriate. Most of the educators there are native Spanish speakers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

We're almost all educators in our family and have a good understanding of what's expected for a two-year-old. I was using the term "borderline" a bit loosely, but child's parents don't want to ignore something. I was just seeking thoughts here because we're not as knowledgeable about acquiring two languages at the same time and don't want to encourage an eval yet if not needed.

Most research shows that bilingualism doesn't delay language, so I wouldn't delay an eval because a child is in bilingual education. However, I'm skeptical that your whole family is early childhood educators. What does his preschool teacher think? He/she would have the best sense of how he's doing relative to same age peers in a similar situation.

PP here. We're not all early childhood educators, but some of us evaluate elementary - middle school children. Some are special ed teachers. I just knew that many DCUM posters were familiar and knowledgeable about this area and pre-school, so seeking opinions. The school is saying that they're watching closely, and an eval might be appropriate. Most of the educators there are native Spanish speakers.

If the school is saying that they're concerned, I'd get an eval, at least a free one through EI, then take it from there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is that true, that you don't see children with average language skills and significant cognitive disabilities?

For significant / severe cognitive disabilities? Yes, that would most likely be true. Even for a moderate cognitive disability you would be looking at fair language skills rather than average. Simple yes, but nothing too complex.
Might be difficult to differentiate at a young age, when fair skills are still the norm for the age group. But from what I know - not a SLP, just a minor in psychology with a focus on psycholinguistics / language acquisition (has been a while and I am not overly active in the field) - severe cognitive disabilities do not usually correlate with average language skill. Mild cognitive disabilities might see average language skills (in children). Learning disabilities can very well see average or above average language skills. But I would agree with 16:17 and 16:18 that in general language skills do not surpass cognitive abilities. The other way round, yes.

I am 16:17 (special educator) and I'm confused by this comment.

When I say "average" skills, I mean average for age. I'm guessing that the SLP meant the same thing. So, there isn't really an age where the norm is "fair" rather than "average". "Average" is, by definition, the norm.

A child with an intellectual disability is not going to present with average language skills, as tested by an SLP. Comprehensive language testing requires children to make connections, draw inferences, sequence, and do other things that are challenging for children with intellectual disabilities.

Having said that, I'll provide a couple caveats.

1) There are some syndromes that cause cognitive/intellectual disabilities for whom social skills are a strength. Williams syndrome comes to mind. These kids may easily acquire some of the very early social markers that an SLP looks for, so they may not look "language delayed" as infants. I've never been involved in formal testing for kids this young, but I wouldn't be surprised to see age appropriate language scores in a 6 month old who went on to have an intellectual and language disability. This doesn't apply to language testing done after the point at which kids can talk.

2) There are some kids, particularly kids with ASD, who acquire parts of language easily. For example, they may develop large vocabularies of nouns; be able to repeat long sentences, sometimes at a later time in the right context; and have great articulation and fluency. A casual observer, or even someone like a parent who has no other experience with kids, might look at these skills and conclude that the child has "great language skills". However, on a full battery of testing, the same child might show difficulty using language for a variety of purposes, creating novel sentences, and understanding spoken language. Many of those kids will have normal intelligence with specific language delays, but some may also have an intellectual disability.

3) There are things that cause kids to lose abilities. For example, a child can have age appropriate language skills, and then get hit by a bus, and end up significantly disabled.

4) Just like kids can have significant language delays and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like autism, or apraxia of speech, or aphasia, or hearing loss, kids can have significant delays in visual processing or motor skills and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like motor apraxia, CP, or visual processing disorders. Having age appropriate language doesn't mean that a child won't struggle substantially with school, or that they won't need significant support going forward.

This is interesting and a good explanation. For kids who fall under caveat 2, would a speech evaluation, a comprehensive one, show them as having average language? And as for kids that have receptive delays, that doesn't always mean intellectual disability, correct?

Yes, happened to my child with ASD whose language scores were higher than average. Only the Language Use Inventory test would reveal his deficiencies. Without it, the school wouldn't have provided services.

When you say this happened to your child with ASD, do you mean they were found to have an intellectual disability? It sounds as though you have a bright child whose autism impacts his pragmatic communication.

I agree that, when qualifying a child for therapy, clinicians need to look at both the overall scores, and the specific scores. So, a child whose language is average overall, but who has significant problems with one area such as articulation, fluency, pragmatics, etc . . . should still receive speech. However, that profile isn't generally the profile of a child with ID. ID children show delays in multiple areas.

Sorry for the confusion. He doesn't have an ID as far as we know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is that true, that you don't see children with average language skills and significant cognitive disabilities?

For significant / severe cognitive disabilities? Yes, that would most likely be true. Even for a moderate cognitive disability you would be looking at fair language skills rather than average. Simple yes, but nothing too complex.
Might be difficult to differentiate at a young age, when fair skills are still the norm for the age group. But from what I know - not a SLP, just a minor in psychology with a focus on psycholinguistics / language acquisition (has been a while and I am not overly active in the field) - severe cognitive disabilities do not usually correlate with average language skill. Mild cognitive disabilities might see average language skills (in children). Learning disabilities can very well see average or above average language skills. But I would agree with 16:17 and 16:18 that in general language skills do not surpass cognitive abilities. The other way round, yes.

I am 16:17 (special educator) and I'm confused by this comment.

When I say "average" skills, I mean average for age. I'm guessing that the SLP meant the same thing. So, there isn't really an age where the norm is "fair" rather than "average". "Average" is, by definition, the norm.

A child with an intellectual disability is not going to present with average language skills, as tested by an SLP. Comprehensive language testing requires children to make connections, draw inferences, sequence, and do other things that are challenging for children with intellectual disabilities.

Having said that, I'll provide a couple caveats.

1) There are some syndromes that cause cognitive/intellectual disabilities for whom social skills are a strength. Williams syndrome comes to mind. These kids may easily acquire some of the very early social markers that an SLP looks for, so they may not look "language delayed" as infants. I've never been involved in formal testing for kids this young, but I wouldn't be surprised to see age appropriate language scores in a 6 month old who went on to have an intellectual and language disability. This doesn't apply to language testing done after the point at which kids can talk.

2) There are some kids, particularly kids with ASD, who acquire parts of language easily. For example, they may develop large vocabularies of nouns; be able to repeat long sentences, sometimes at a later time in the right context; and have great articulation and fluency. A casual observer, or even someone like a parent who has no other experience with kids, might look at these skills and conclude that the child has "great language skills". However, on a full battery of testing, the same child might show difficulty using language for a variety of purposes, creating novel sentences, and understanding spoken language. Many of those kids will have normal intelligence with specific language delays, but some may also have an intellectual disability.

3) There are things that cause kids to lose abilities. For example, a child can have age appropriate language skills, and then get hit by a bus, and end up significantly disabled.

4) Just like kids can have significant language delays and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like autism, or apraxia of speech, or aphasia, or hearing loss, kids can have significant delays in visual processing or motor skills and not have an intellectual disability, due to things like motor apraxia, CP, or visual processing disorders. Having age appropriate language doesn't mean that a child won't struggle substantially with school, or that they won't need significant support going forward.

This is interesting and a good explanation. For kids who fall under caveat 2, would a speech evaluation, a comprehensive one, show them as having average language? And as for kids that have receptive delays, that doesn't always mean intellectual disability, correct?

Yes, happened to my child with ASD whose language scores were higher than average. Only the Language Use Inventory test would reveal his deficiencies. Without it, the school wouldn't have provided services.

Interesting. My son does not have ASD, but he is only 4, so I can see the point about this not really being meaningful until higher order language comes into play.

PP here and it was very useful. The school district wouldn't have provided services if it weren't for the LUI test. FWIW, our son was evaluated before he turned 3.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm. We did the PSL-5. I think it has a functional use aspect. But I'm not sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will not be able to rule out cognitive issues until neuropsych, but if a child is verbal, is a language score a reasonable approximation of intelligence or not? Have heard conflicting reports.

Kids can have language delays that make their language skills lower than their cognitive skills, often substantially lower. You definitely can see kids with severe language problems and average IQ's. The reverse doesn't happen, at least not to the same degree. You don't see, for example, age appropriate language skills in a child with a significant cognitive disability.

I am a school psychologist and the reverse absolutely does happen. I have tested several kids with an average verbal IQ with below average fluid reasoning scores. Several of these students also had low working memory scores.