Is language an approximation of intelligence of a child is verbal?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will not be able to rule out cognitive issues until neuropsych, but if a child is verbal, is a language score a reasonable approximation of intelligence or not? Have heard conflicting reports.

Kids can have language delays that make their language skills lower than their cognitive skills, often substantially lower. You definitely can see kids with severe language problems and average IQ's. The reverse doesn't happen, at least not to the same degree. You don't see, for example, age appropriate language skills in a child with a significant cognitive disability.

I am a school psychologist and the reverse absolutely does happen. I have tested several kids with an average verbal IQ with below average fluid reasoning scores. Several of these students also had low working memory scores.

Okay. So I guess not as reassuring as I had hoped.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will not be able to rule out cognitive issues until neuropsych, but if a child is verbal, is a language score a reasonable approximation of intelligence or not? Have heard conflicting reports.

Kids can have language delays that make their language skills lower than their cognitive skills, often substantially lower. You definitely can see kids with severe language problems and average IQ's. The reverse doesn't happen, at least not to the same degree. You don't see, for example, age appropriate language skills in a child with a significant cognitive disability.

I am a school psychologist and the reverse absolutely does happen. I have tested several kids with an average verbal IQ with below average fluid reasoning scores. Several of these students also had low working memory scores.

And were those kids ID or low average?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hmmm. We did the PSL-5. I think it has a functional use aspect. But I'm not sure.

School psychologist here again. I dislike the PLS (preschool language scales) because it uses 6 month norms, which is ridiculous. So a kid who is tested just before his third birthday - so technically 2 years, 11 months will be compared to children 2 years, 6 months to 2 years, 11 months. So let's say that kid gets a raw score (answers correctly) of 30(I am making up scores because I don't have the manual in front of me) that kid might get a standard score of 85, percentile rank of 16 (child scored equal to or better than 16 percent of kids in that age bracket),which speech therapists would say is in the average range so not eligible for services. If you waited a day and tested that kid on his third birthday, he will be compared to kids 3 years, 0 months to 3years, 5 months and 30 days. The standard score would be around 75, percentile rank of 5 (only better than or equal to 5 percent of kids in that age bracket). Now the kid is eligible for special Ed. services.
So how old exactly was your child because it really matters when they just meet or miss an age cut off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

How do you know the child has 'borderline expressive language delays" if the child hasn't been evaluated?

We're almost all educators in our family and have a good understanding of what's expected for a two-year-old. I was using the term "borderline" a bit loosely, but child's parents don't want to ignore something. I was just seeking thoughts here because we're not as knowledgeable about acquiring two languages at the same time and don't want to encourage an eval yet if not needed.

Most research shows that bilingualism doesn't delay language, so I wouldn't delay an eval because a child is in bilingual education. However, I'm skeptical that your whole family is early childhood educators. What does his preschool teacher think? He/she would have the best sense of how he's doing relative to same age peers in a similar situation.

PP here. We're not all early childhood educators, but some of us evaluate elementary - middle school children. Some are special ed teachers. I just knew that many DCUM posters were familiar and knowledgeable about this area and pre-school, so seeking opinions. The school is saying that they're watching closely, and an eval might be appropriate. Most of the educators there are native Spanish speakers.

If the school is saying that they're concerned, I'd get an eval, at least a free one through EI, then take it from there.

Thanks for your input--greatly appreciated.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hmmm. We did the PSL-5. I think it has a functional use aspect. But I'm not sure.

School psychologist here again. I dislike the PLS (preschool language scales) because it uses 6 month norms, which is ridiculous. So a kid who is tested just before his third birthday - so technically 2 years, 11 months will be compared to children 2 years, 6 months to 2 years, 11 months. So let's say that kid gets a raw score (answers correctly) of 30(I am making up scores because I don't have the manual in front of me) that kid might get a standard score of 85, percentile rank of 16 (child scored equal to or better than 16 percent of kids in that age bracket),which speech therapists would say is in the average range so not eligible for services. If you waited a day and tested that kid on his third birthday, he will be compared to kids 3 years, 0 months to 3years, 5 months and 30 days. The standard score would be around 75, percentile rank of 5 (only better than or equal to 5 percent of kids in that age bracket). Now the kid is eligible for special Ed. services.
So how old exactly was your child because it really matters when they just meet or miss an age cut off.

He was 4.3 months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Will not be able to rule out cognitive issues until neuropsych, but if a child is verbal, is a language score a reasonable approximation of intelligence or not? Have heard conflicting reports.

Kids can have language delays that make their language skills lower than their cognitive skills, often substantially lower. You definitely can see kids with severe language problems and average IQ's. The reverse doesn't happen, at least not to the same degree. You don't see, for example, age appropriate language skills in a child with a significant cognitive disability.

I am a school psychologist and the reverse absolutely does happen. I have tested several kids with an average verbal IQ with below average fluid reasoning scores. Several of these students also had low working memory scores.

You have tested kids who scored in the ID range overall, with average verbal IQ? Or you have tested kids with some subscores in the ID range, with average verbal IQ. I'm the PP above, and I'm not sure I disagree with you.

In my experience, when kids have huge gaps, with one part low, the psychologists don't calculate a full scale. Instead they state that the higher scores are likely the best estimate of the child's intelligence and diagnose LD. I've never seen a kid diagnosed with ID with average language scores. "Below average" or "borderline", pulled down by low scores on other areas? Yes, but not a truly average (85 - 115) language testing scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not if the child is bilingual. Test results will be extremely inaccurate wrongly putting the child in "intellectual disability" when in fact child might be highly intelligent but with two languages developing at the same time and people who don't have a clue how to deal with it, you might be facing years of wrong diagnosis for a kid that might be highly intelligent.

What are your thoughts about a two year old with borderline expressive language delays who has been in a Spanish immersion preschool since 6 months? Family's first language is English. Is an eval appropriate? Receptive language and response to verbal requests seem on target. TIA.

I am PP who posted the bilingual comment above. I don't really know in this situation. Usually in manifests as lack of comprehension when faced with tests but at home, in regular situations, parents should be able to distinguish what the kid is saying even if he is mixing two languages. I would wait as two is pretty young to diagnose or find an expert for bilingual kids.

[Anonymous]

Follow up question - so if there is no receptive delay, there is usually not an ID? Is that correct?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question - so if there is no receptive delay, there is usually not an ID? Is that correct?

No.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question - so if there is no receptive delay, there is usually not an ID? Is that correct?

No.

Okay. I thought the general consensus was that ID usually always presented with a receptive delay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question - so if there is no receptive delay, there is usually not an ID? Is that correct?

No.

Okay. I thought the general consensus was that ID usually always presented with a receptive delay.

There are some very verbal kids with ID.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Follow up question - so if there is no receptive delay, there is usually not an ID? Is that correct?

No.

Okay. I thought the general consensus was that ID usually always presented with a receptive delay.

There are some very verbal kids with ID.

Yes but don't they generally have delays?

[Anonymous]

Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

+1, my kid has receptive issues and he is intelligent.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bottom line is apparently, nobody knows.

+1, my kid has receptive issues and he is intelligent.

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I think the consensus is that you can have receptive issues and be intelligent. But you can't be ID and not have a receptive delay. That was my understanding.